Interview with Timothy Brietenfeld, a blind software programmer with JPMorgan Chase & Co. Released April 28, 2023.
(Editor's Note: This is a transcript of the conversation produced by Otter AI. It has been edited for clarity, but may have moments of run-on sentences, which were preserved to reflect the on-air conversation.)
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Announcer 0:03
You were listening to inform and connect a podcast of the American Foundation for the Blind. And now your host, Melanie Goodspeed.
Melody Goodspeed 0:14
Hi everybody. This is Melody Goodspeed with the American Foundation for the Blind. I am the Associate Director of Development here at AFP, it brings me great joy to kick off our spring season of the informing Connect Podcast. Please welcome Timothy Breitenfeld from JPMorgan Chase. Timothy is going to take us on a ride of being a computer scientist at JPMorgan Chase as someone who is blind.
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We are so excited to have our friends from JPMorgan Chase here with us today. And we're gonna have a really fun conversation about all things. Timothy Breitenfeld, who's with us today. Timothy, how are you?
Timothy Breitenfeld 1:05
Hi, I'm doing very well. Thank you.
Melody Goodspeed 1:07
I'm so glad to have you. And I didn't butcher your last name. No, no. Okay. I'm so glad to have you back with us. You know, we did this with some co workers of yours last year. And so I'm really, really, really jazzed to have you here to kind of chat out and hear your own story.
Timothy Breitenfeld 1:23
Thank you. Glad to be here. Yeah.
Melody Goodspeed 1:27
So, we're so excited to have you here with us today. And we get to talk all things career.
Timothy Breitenfeld 1:36
I'm super excited as well, you know, to talk about my story and be able to tell people about my journey to get where I'm at today.
Melody Goodspeed 1:46
can you walk us through what got you into computer science?
Timothy Breitenfeld 1:53
Sure. So, it was kind of a journey for me, because I didn't really think that programming was something I could do. I've always been interested in computers, they've always been fascinating to me. And back when I was in high school, I went through a vocational Skill Center, what it was is a vocational school that we went through, and I took an I-T class there and was able to kind of go through a lot of I-T support stuff, learned about networking, troubleshooting, you know, computers and all these things. And honestly, I kind of expected going that route, which was, you know, kind of helped us support, kind of doing that with a screen reader as a blind user myself.
I have almost no vision, myself. And I was very wary of it. It It sounded like it was gonna be a very difficult journey. But I was like I don't know, I think it might be doable. And I was kind of really exploring.
At the end of that class, they also did some C++ and video game programming. Unfortunately, my teacher didn't know how to make that accessible for me. And I just didn't know enough about what was going on. I had never touched any kind of programming before in my life. And I had no idea how to help and advise him in where what direction to go when I didn't know anyone. And so we kind of just adjusted that. I did some web development stuff, just HTML, CSS, a little bit of JavaScript. And that was kind of my first exposure to any kind of coding.
The first time I actually done a little bit of programming was when I was actually at the Washington State School for the Blind. There was a class on programming that they did. And I had this opportunity to kind of go through this and I don't know honestly, I didn't do great. it was a new programming language specifically for blind people. it's now called quorum. Actually, it's not specifically for blind people, but it was built for accessibility, to be accessible for blind people.
Honestly, it was very difficult for me. I got my Associates. And I started to feel out where I wanted to go. I didn't quite know what I wanted to do. I just knew it was going to be something to do with computers.
So I took a server administration class, a networking class. And I kind of finally was very hesitant with my experience before entering programming, I honestly didn't think I could do it, but I wanted to take a Python class. My first programming class in college. And I passed it with like 110%. I was like, "Maybe this is it!" So, I went on to get my bachelor's in computer science. I'm very happy to be where I'm at today. It was quite a long journey to get here.
Melody Goodspeed 5:23
Well, to me, I love the fact that you're really talking about the barriers, in the sense that, you know, we're always having to keep fighting. And I think that's one of the things that we have to talk about when we're looking at anything in life. Right. And when you talked about your first professor not really showing how to make it accessible, and then when you went back and did so great. With Python, what do you think the differences were?
Timothy Breitenfeld 5:49
I think part of it really came down to when I was in high school. Part of it was the material we were covering, when I was in high school, where I was kind of going to vocational school, they were very, it was on the debatably a bit more advanced jumping straight into video game programming. And there was a lot of resources that he provided that were not going to be very helpful for me, I mean, there's audio games out there and stuff you can build, but, it's not still, like, there's, there's documentation and stuff, we're building them. But it's really a pretty niche area for building games for the blind or visually impaired, and I had no idea how to go about that.
With Python, at least, we really started from the bottom up, we we really started from the beginning, and we were able to kind of go through that. And, and not to mention, I think part of it all came down to, I'd come along a bit further about resources that were available to me and I'd met more people. And it's you got to kind of you got to network, you got to get in, you got to learn about the resources that are available to help you in your fields, and especially as a blind person.
Melody Goodspeed 7:24
I'm so glad you brought this up, because your networking is so, so important. But in being a self advocate, what I'm hearing a lot of you talking about. Can we touch a little bit on that? I mean, I know that you sound like you were really passionate, and knew that that was the path you wanted to go down. And getting there. Can you talk a little bit about some of those things that you did to come farther to where you are now?
Timothy Breitenfeld 7:49
Sure, yeah, it definitely requires a lot of self-advocacy, absolutely. You got to have the drive the passion for what you're doing, and you just gotta keep kind of trudging forward. And as things pop up, you just kind of have to work it out with your instructors or, or disability support services and use all the resources you have. So for me, I kind of went through some of the programming classes I took when I was in community college, I really work very closely with my instructor, and Disability Support Services. I got as much help as I could from them. If I needed accessible materials, I would go to them. If I had a PDF or some documents or something, or handouts that I needed in some kind of accessible format, of course, I'd go to them.
But a huge part of it came down to... I mean, disability services isn't going to tell them help me determine what is the best tool for the blind or visually impaired to be using to be writing code. Disability Services can't help with that. it requires a lot of self advocacy, you know, talking with instructors, kind of doing your own research and, and really exploring and ideally trying to find one of those communities, which I didn't really know existed back then that are out there. There's lots of blind communities out there setting up mailing lists and website forms, specifically with blind programmers on them, you know, and people can answer these questions.
But, when you're first starting, I had no idea for me, I had no idea those resources were out there. And so, I was very much self taught. And in that regard, I did all my own research and kind of found some solutions to to some of the problems I was having Having. And you know, in some cases, you know, it's like in terms of material, like when I was in university, I was, I mean, there were some days when I needed to be in my teachers office every other day, because some of the material we were covering was just very difficult for me to understand. He'd write things up on the board, and maybe he's using diagrams or images pictures, these drawings to help with the board to kind of help get the concept crossed. Andit's we're talking about operating systems and scheduling process, you know, you know, scheduling algorithms process processes, and it was really complex and very difficult for me to kind of wrap my head around about the different kinds of algorithms and so it's like, for them for that it was incredibly Barbary, just be in my teacher's office and just be able to sit down with him. And we kind of went hand-over-hand with certain tactile stuff you use, like pennies or note cards as ways to kind of demonstrate different things. And it really did help a lot.
Melody Goodspeed 11:07
that's incredible. As you are with your professors and finding other ways for you to comprehend it, which is so important, like myself, being someone who is blind and using screen readers, I totally get this trying to find different ways of understanding something, when you don't have that physical sight to see it. When you guys are both exploring those things, did maybe your professor or yourself find a different way of communicating, or maybe something creative that came out of that with a different way that you learn.
Timothy Breitenfeld 11:40
Definitely, in terms of kind of what I was saying, using, like, the big one, for me, it was learning about this thing called "Linkages." In programming its the type of data structure that is one of the first data structures, you tend to, to learn about when you get into, to computer science, and you really start getting into the classes and sort of talking about data structures. And Link was, it was something that kind of popped up at one point, and I kind of glossed over, I didn't really understand it, at the time, and I just kind of glossed over it, and finally it came up, and we were really doing a deep-dive into it, really understanding what was going on in this data structure, how all of these things were connected, and how everything was working. And I was really struggling with it. And I went into my teacher, I was like, This is my problem. I have seen this before, but I did not understand it. And he's like, Well, this is really important for the degree, you need to understand this. So we sat down, and we kind of talked through it, and I still wasn't quite getting it. And finally, he's like "hold on." What he did was he grabbed note cards, right, as I was kind of saying before, and I use paper clips. And so we'll think about linkages, you have basically elements that are connected to each other. And it's like you have next and previous references to next elements, previous relevance, and he's using paper clips to kind of represent these references to the next element. There are links in the chain, very similar to like a train, right, you have links to link to train cars together, and it was like these, a lot of those physical things really, really helped me and I kind of took that on and into some lighter classes, where we really started talking about other data structures very easy to map up on a whiteboard, to explain it, but very difficult to explain to a blind person who's just not getting, that imagery. And we kind of took a lot of those same concepts into within my, my teacher kind of took that to so my other instructors, and, what, we worked for us, you know, when I worked with him, and it really helped a lot, to really have that hands on experience of really understanding. It's like, okay, at a high level, this is this is what's going on, you know, and I can kind of really feel what's going on.
Melody Goodspeed 14:18
on. So, that is great. So it sounds like you really took that learning experience and use it as transferable skills into other areas that you were learning throughout your degree. Yeah, that's awesome. That's, that's so great. I think it's really hard being blind to try to function in a world where we learn differently, and being able to push forward really does have to take that self advocacy piece now.
When you were in college, how can you talk us through like any internships that you may have had,
Timothy Breitenfeld 14:50
so, no, really I unfortunately, I did not my program did not actually have any internships. In the program, it was something that I really wanted to do especially because I knew that as a blind person, it is a struggle to get a job in the industry. I mean, regardless of what your field is, it's you're fighting an uphill battle. And having a degree helps, but unfortunately, I tried. But, it wasn't a requirement for the degree.
As a result, it wasn't something that that was just kind of landed in my lap. Right? And but, I mean, I could do an internship Optionally during one of the summer quarters or something. And, I did apply, but I never got an internship, unfortunately. And, that's just kind of the way it goes. I'm sure everyone who's out there as a blind person who applied for jobs and got turned down knows it's no fun. and I kind of got a little sneak peek into what my life would be like to job hunt.
Melody Goodspeed 16:11
I'm so glad you brought this up Timothy, because it really is, it's, uh, it, you know, we can, especially since we're listening to your journey such a dedicated worker, really passionate about what you're doing, and then found ways to bring it forward. And, it is difficult, which is one of our missions, of helping with that unemployment rate.
Can you talk to us about your experience at JPMorgan Chase? Like, how will you, you know, how you found what you're doing now?
Timothy Breitenfeld 16:40
Sure. So, it was actually kind of a strange, strange path that I took to get here. I actually started out mean, you walked out of college in 2019. And with my bachelor's in computer science, and I started job hunting, and I really a walk into interview after interview, and the thing that I kept getting told over and over and over again, which I kind of understood, although, I wonder if there was other aspects to it was ideal, I don't have enough experience. Right. Now, there's part of it. I mean, ideally, all of my interviews were remote. The joys, I guess, of working in this field is it's very technological, and a lot of the work can be done remotely. And I was I, at this point in my life, I was willing to go just about anywhere, I wanted to stay near in the area where my family was, but I'm, like, I don't know. I was kind of ready to go anywhere at this point, I was, I needed experience on my resume. And so, yoßu know, basically, all my interviews were all remote and blindness would come up. I mean, I would drop it into an interview. And in a the age old question, it's like, when do you tell an employer when you're blind? And, I mean, I personally like to weave it into my answer into a question or something. So we're in, let it fall. And naturally, I don't like dropping it off at the beginning, I like proving to them that I have the ability to, you know, do do this job. And after they understand that I have the ability to do this job. I, you know, we'll we'll try and weave it into conversation somehow. As is something a bit more natural. But, I don't know, I just say over and over again, I just kept thinking, why don't I want to experience and which part of that's the catch 22 You need experience, get experience? And what do you know about it? You know, like rationalise thiss? I mean, how much was just them telling me as an excuse, because they didn't want to hire a blind person? I don't know. But
that aside, I mean, I eventually got hired. Well, it was an apprenticeship, actually through a company called smoothes deck. And I was based out of Fairfax, Virginia, though. So it was going to be a pretty big leap for me to, to just kind of leave home, I was going to have to go fly all the way from Fairfax, Virginia. I'd be down there for three months for training. They put me up with corporate housing, and then they would contract me at one of their clients. And unfortunately, I finished training. It was like March, 2020, right when COVID came. so I'm sitting there in Fairfax, and I feel like stranded In corporate housing, and in short, I, I end up getting furloughed from them because they just weren't able to find me a client to work with. But I mean, I had this amazing skill set, I felt very qualified after the training, There training was fabulous. But I just still didn't have a job.
And now we had COVID. And I kind of started job hunting on my own. And about two months later, I got picked up by an organization called Blind Institute of Technology. They reached out to me, they're another resource for the blind or visually impaired for helping find jobs, specifically in the technology field.. Yeah, be it has been was was great. And I, they were like, we can help you find a job.
I was like, "okay, where have you been for the past two years?" I made it through their vetting processes very fast. And, as I was going through the process, they were like, well, we have this company, Chase, we're working with, and you might be a good fit.
I was like, "Cool!" So I'm straight out of their vetting process into an interview with Chase. And I guess I nailed the interview, because I got the job. I was so excited. When I finally got the acceptance letter, and it was finally real.
Melody Goodspeed 21:48
that's great. And you had to do the happy dance,. That is so wonderful. As we wrap this up, you'd mentioned networking, which I want to touch on, but your experience at JPMorgan Chase, what do you have to say about your company that has really set them apart from other organizations? I mean, we've talked about the interview process, and being able to have that experience to get experience. What kind of areas?
Timothy Breitenfeld 22:31
Yeah. So I would say some of the big stuff, your big points, I mean, Chase has focus on disability and accessibility inclusion. They are really focused on making sure everyone can do their job.
One thing I'll say is when I got hired, I was like, well, I need these things, to only do my job, I need a screen editor. And I use both NVDA and jaws, JAWS as needed. And they're like, Okay, so they went out, and they were able to give me a laptop and get all the software installed, and get it shipped out to me, It was a bit of a process at first, but, once we kind of worked out all the kinks and what was going on, I was even kind of involved in helping iron out some of the details in terms of my hiring process, because there was some things that I was like, some of this could have been done better. A lot of people agreed. I mean, I'm not exactly the first person to be hired. , for sure. But my particular experience was a bit difficult. So they, they helped them develop a new team to help handle specific tech support accessibility and disability answers regarding, like, assistive technology. I've heard that's helping. Onboarding processes go a lot smoother now.
While I've been working at Chase, I have been able to really connect with some of the digital accessibility teams, and I'm really trying to help push for digital accessibility within the firm and for apps. There is definitely a lot of support. There's growth to be had everywhere, of course, but it's like there's a lot of people who are listening to what people have to say, and progress is being made.
Melody Goodspeed 25:01
That's great. It sounds like you performed a partnership and streamlined processes right at the beginning. So that's incredible. That's really, really great. What.
Timothy, thank you so much for sharing your story. Just speaking for our listeners, if you, you clearly mapped out what it is you wanted to do. And one of the things with employment is even self advocacy. You think, "Okay, I'm gonna go do this, and I'm going to get the best job." But you really have proven that you can follow your dreams, and do what it is you want to do.
What advice would you give to someone who's in college right now? We had mentioned networking, but what kind of tips and tricks really helped you?
Timothy Breitenfeld 25:44
Yeah, the biggest thing that I can recommend to anyone is, to get on the mailing list, if you don't know, they exist. So There are blind programming mailing lists that are out there, they are a goldmine as a resource of information. You can post a question and you just have a pool of other blind developers. It is incredible. I'm sure that there's others that I'm not mentioning.
You're not the first person to do this, you're not reinventing the wheel. Right? That's always the hardest, right? And I mean, there's parts of what you're doing that people go through. it's like, you kind of are it's like, sometimes you walk in, and you've had this teacher who has never worked with a blind student before. And suddenly, you have to teach them how to work with a blind person. And I did that. It felt like every darn class I had, it was a rare thing when I walked in, and they're like, Oh, I've got a blind student for I was like, Oh, really. You're like, one of like, three.
I've had my degree, so that's great. So but you know, it's finding those resources, and it's like networking is kind of like intertwined with that, it's those resources really help you to, to start meeting people. Sometimes those mailing lists, they'll kind of point out things. That was actually how I got involved with bat. They posted something on the mailing list, and I was on and they said, they were looking at expanding, they were trying to find new candidates, new people who are interested in trying to find a job and in the computer science space, and then as software engineer, and we're in the IT space, even. And I was like, yes, and and I reached out through him, but because I was part of that mailing list that's how I actually ended up getting involved with them. And so yeah, that would be the biggest thing. And do your research in terms of what is it that you want to be doing? You got to sit down and kind of do some self exploration on the technologies that you're going to be using for classes and in terms of what's accessible, what's not, and then why you're not spending your time learning, learning the tools while trying to learn the programming language at the same time. That's no fun have done that. It's very, very difficult. It's like you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot. It's more work. I mean, I won't lie, it requires you to do a lot more work than the average person needs. That's what I did to get where I'm at, but yeah it's worth it.
Melody Goodspeed 29:22
Well, Timothy, thank you so much. This has been so helpful. And I agree with you, all these things are definitely helpful. And thank you so much, most of all, for sharing your journey with us Because we know it's a tough road, but you're sticking with it, and you're in a fulfilling career with a great company. We just really appreciate you coming on in talking with us today.
Timothy Breitenfeld 29:44
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
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Melody Goodspeed 29:46
Thank you. If you want to know what we're up to at AFB, you can visit us at AFB.org. And check us out with our mission and programs. Thank you so much for listening. Take care. Bye guys.
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