A conversation with Roy Samuelson, Colleen Connor, Satauna Howery, Serina Gilbert, and Bridget Melton on the power of audio description.
Episode Show Notes
In this episode, your host Melody Goodspeed sits down with the audio description team for the AFB documentary film Possibilities (2024). She’s joined by AD producer Roy Samuelson, AD writer Colleen Connor, AD QC specialist Serina Gilbert,AD performer Sautana Howery, and AD writer Bridget Melton. The team shares the unique approach they took toward creating open audio description for the film, as well as offer a behind-the-scenes look at the audio description craft and the work it takes to make compelling audio description.
AFB Possibilities is a production of the American Foundation for the blind, a podcast that focuses on life, culture, and inclusion for people who are blind or have low vision.
AFB Possibilities is produced and edited by Tony Stephens at the Pickle Factory in Baltimore, MD with digital media support by Kelly Gasque and Breanna Kerr. The theme music is by Zizo, compliments of ArtList.IO..
To learn more about AFB, or to help support our work, visit www.afb.org. Be sure to like and subscribe, and you can visit the podcast page at: afb.org/news-publications/media/afb-possibilities-podcast
AFB Possibilities Podcast, Episode 2 Transcript
Narrator:
AFB.
You are listening to the A FB Possibilities podcast, a production of the American Foundation for the Blind. On today's episode, we get a chance to meet the audio description team behind AFBs documentary film Possibilities.
And now your host, Melody Goodspeed.
Melody:
Okay, so I'm really excited I get to hang out with some very cool people today, a lot of really cool people in the audio description world, which again makes me so excited As a person who is blind and vision impaired, I love audio description and I know that a lot of people are like, what is audio description and why? And in the short, basically it is how people that are blind or visually impaired watch tv. So I have some friends with me that can kind of talk a little bit more about that, but I'm super excited. This is the new fully released, revamped the American Foundation for the Blind podcast. Possibilities. I'm so excited that it's renamed and even more excited with the renaming and the launch of it. I get the whole entire crew that did the audio description of the film possibilities here with me today, which is so cool. So I'm going to introduce one at a time. So Deda, my very dear friend and spearhead leader of so many things. Audio description worldwide. Roy Samuelson, audio description narrator. Hi buddy.
Roy:
Hey, thanks for having us. I'm so excited to be here.
Melody:
I'm so excited to be here too and I'm super excited because during covid and things were crazy, you helped me start the podcast here, which is wild that we're here now.
Roy:
It's so much fun to see the rename and it is so coincidence that it's also the name of the film. How about that?
Melody:
So exciting. I'm so excited about it. So as we're here, we have so much to talk about. We have so many things, but you, let's introduce everybody here and let's all just sit on the couch and have some coffee or wine, whatever your beverage of choice is today. So who do we have here with us today, Roy?
Roy:
We're all in different time zones. I guess that doesn't really matter what we're drinking. Let's start with Colleen Connor of ad training retreats.
Melody:
Hi Colleen, how are you? I'm so glad you're here today.
Colleen:
I am hanging in there. I am fighting the good ad fight.
Melody:
I know we all thank you. Can you tell me how you fight the ad fight and tell everybody a little bit about you?
Colleen:
Yes, so my name is Colleen Connor. I am a non-binary white female mid thirties and I'm usually sporting a pixie haircut that is either pink or purple depending on what comes out of the box. I use she and they pronouns and I am the director of audio description training retreats, shortened does A DTR. And basically I spend my time raising awareness of audio description coaching people in AD and primarily training writers of audio description. One of my main goals is to increase representation of world population individuals, majority world population and people who are lacking in the industry as far as writers and performers of audio description. And I do some voiceover, but I mostly train everyone else. So that's kind of me in a nutshell.
Melody:
That is awesome. And I have to add that pink and purple are my favorite colors and I have the most spectacular purple nails right now, which is my thing. And I have it. Yes. So I'm already in on that.
Colleen:
Yes.
Melody:
Stuff I write and thank you for what you do. We're going to talk more about the writing part of it too, because I think that is just so intriguing. I think people think that when they hear audio description that it's so easy and it's not. And writing is, I mean all of it's hard, but I tried it once for a hot second and I mean my brain was fright. It's so hard. But I love that you do it and I think people take for granted how hard it is to describe a photo in a few words.
Colleen:
Yes, audio description is sort of an art and a science to me. It's more like a trade craft. So you learn the best practices and the guidelines and after that it's kind of art. So there is bad description. We all know bad audio description, but there isn't a ton of wrong audio description depending on what you're describing. But it is about being pithy and it's sort of like a puzzle trying to fit in. How many syllables can I fit in this amount of points seven seconds before what's impactful? And then half the stuff you write is on the editing room floor. It doesn't fit. And so it is kind of a fun puzzle of finding the perfect word, but it's definitely, I think probably more time consuming than people think. And I think it's similar to sports in a way where if you make it look easy, that's a good thing. So if you as the voice artist fade into the background and become part of the film by the end of it, the best compliment you can get as a writer or narrator is, I completely forgot you were there. Sorry. Yes, it was good.
And of course there's all different kinds. This is prerecorded, so we got to fit it exactly in there in the film.
Melody:
That's awesome. That is awesome. Well come back to the writing part because I have a lot to talk about. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited. And now you have the writing and then you have the people, Roy, who talk the writing that these beautiful people put together. So who do we have next? We can have some fun with today.
Roy:
Sure. And we'll come back to the other part of our writing team, Colleen. They're our ad writing lead and we also have another writer, but our ad performer, I'm using the language of performer instead of narrator lately for when I described the person who is voicing the script that's been written for the ad and very honored and proud to introduce our ad performer, Satauna Howie.
Melody:
Hello Satauna.
Satauna:
Hello Melody.
Melody:
I'm giving you the biggest virtual hug ever. I love that. Super giant virtual hugs, back door direction. You have the best laugh. It's therapeutic. I think we need to bottle that and put it in somewhere. I dunno.
Satauna:
Well it depends. It could be like a Halloween laugh.
Melody:
Well we need that. That's coming. I don't know. It depends.
Well, I love the fact that yes, you are the person who's reading and the fun and I will mimic that totally Roy, that she was definitely a performer because that movie, the movie has so much in there that you are performing especially, and I'm going to say it you guys audio description joke, which is so great and it's every time you hear it it's so lovely. But yeah, what was this project like for you? Tell us a little about you first. I'm sorry, I got ahead of myself and you and what you do and all the fun.
Satauna:
What I do, I am a voice actor, voice coach, and of course an audio description advocate. I have been blind since birth and so I use braille to read my scripts and audio description is a piece of the voice work that I do. I do e-learning, I do medical, technical, scientific narration. I just finished up a big award ceremony for the National Association of Medicine, which is super fun. All these names who've done all these amazing things with various vaccines and treatments and mental health stuff, firearms injury prevention and all this really cool stuff. So I do all sorts of really fun voice projects and what that means for me as a voice actor, I'm also a business owner. You can't really do voice acting full time and make a living at it if you're not treating it like a business. So there you go. That's me.
Melody:
That is awesome. And I have so much to ask about that too as we go along and I just going to ask, well since we have just Colleen and Satani, you feel like you just brought something up there. You got to feel like you're learning different things all the time too when you're in such a different genre and thanks.
Satauna:
Yeah, that's fun. That's part of the fun of it.
Melody:
Oh my gosh. I would totally act like I was a doctor or something if I could. Anyway, sorry. Okay. It's so awesome. Okay, so Colleen is the lead writer. Let's go back to the writing real quick, Roy and talk about that because I am doing a terrible job at this right now.
Roy:
We're having so much fun though. That is the point with Colleen being the 80 writing lead. We also had, if I could introduce our other writer, Bridget Melton.
Bridget:
Thank you.
Melody:
It's so good to have you.
Bridget:
Yeah, no, this is very exciting. I definitely feel very fan girly being in the room with everybody and it was really cool to get to be the additional ad writer on this because I am also a student of Colleen's and we now are our colleagues and friends and so it was really cool to get to touch and manipulate words and stuff that she had already called out as these are the important things. And so I came in and just kind of finessed and made sure that when you have so much time to be able to put in ad because the film is being created with ad in mind, it's like well then how do I shorten this so that the film isn't just ad because they had so many cool visuals and so it was very cool to kind of come in. I was one of the very last pieces in the team, so it was very neat to be able to tangentially work with Colleen even though we weren't in the room together.
Melody:
That is awesome and I love it, the fact that it's not only were you working together, but it's teacher and student, which is so awesome. That's really cool. And I was actually going to ask about that when we get to it for the movie because I know there's many pictures of Helen Keller for example or things that are coming up, just how you pick on what to focus, and I definitely want to have that as we go in here too because I think that stuff is so incredibly important adding to the fun of all this. So thank you. And Bridget, what do you also do, because I know you do audio description, live narration as well. We talked about that.
Bridget:
I started, I come from a theater background and a cultural accessibility world where I've been working in theaters and learning a lot more about just the experience of coming to venues and museums and everything for people with disabilities. And then I got the opportunity to learn ad and I've just didn't stop. I quit my day job and this is what I do full time, like
Satauna like yeah, you got to treat it like a business if you want to stay in it. And so I have lots of massive spreadsheets that talk to me about every job I've ever done so that I keep moving forward and keep learning and everything. And so I'll do live events, I'll do recorded scripting, I'll do the narration, I'll do the mixing. I like to work on just a huge, huge variety of projects so that I'm never stuck feeling like I'm doing the same thing every day.
Melody:
That is awesome. I'm the same because I don't think anybody really wants to do the same thing every single day.
Bridget:
Yeah, no.
Melody:
Yeah, I love it, especially with the audio description. I want to come back to that too for all of us who use it, just how important that is to bring the world to life, not just in the cinema and it's the art, the museums, it's all of that bringing, changing the narrative, showing people how we see things and then also helping education. I think it's so important. So thank you guys for that. Okay, so as we are talking about audio description, there's other pieces to it. What are some other pieces, Roy? And we can talk about those as we introduce the next person
Roy:
And producing this film with audio description was an absolute blast. Unfortunately we didn't have our engineer Jeff Ross, so just a quick shout out to him and the work that he did in mixing on the audio description track and also placement. But we do have, last but not least is our quality control specialist, Serina Gilbert.
Melody:
Hi Serina. It's so nice to meet you.
Serina:
Hi Melody. It's nice to meet you as well.
Melody:
I'm so glad you're here with us and quality control is so important in so many things of our life. Can you talk to us a little bit about what you do with audio description, quality control?
Serina:
Yeah, it's kind of interesting because everyone thinks, hey, you're a blind quality control specialist. You just get to watch TV and it's all fun and games. And the reality is yes, I do get to enjoy some really cool titles, but it's so much more technical than that. I'm looking at the script, I'm looking at the words that are used and I'm looking at did they use a word that most people don't know what that word means and we'll distract them and take them out of the whole experience. And is there a more concise way maybe or, oh my gosh, we went to say John when we said Bobby Little things. It's more than just paying attention to the plot too. It's a lot. It takes me about double the time to watch it when I'm QCing and then it does if you were just sitting and enjoying it.
Melody:
Well because you're not right. You're in there to really, it's like I think taking a test, you're in school, you can listen but you're in there to make sure that people are getting it and getting the right experience.
Serina:
Exactly.
Melody:
Do you also do the quality as far as the audio if it's because I know an audio description sometimes? The other night I was watching something and the ad was really loud when the show was really quiet. It's really weird. I hadn't seen that yet.
Serina:
I do. So one of the companies I work for, they send me the fully mixed tracks and if I think the mix is off or there's something going on with it, I do flag that to make sure. And then I've even consulted on is it the right voice? Some people don't know this, if it's a primarily female cast, it's sometimes better to have a male odd ad performer as Roy says, because sometimes a female voice can get lost with the whole cast being female and wondering, oh my gosh, was that a character? Was that the ad? So there's kind of an art to that as well.
Melody:
That is awesome. I want to learn more about that too as we go and I'm so glad to be here. I'm so excited to meet you. Right. I want to go back to Jeff because I think the engineering piece is, could you just tell everybody a little bit about what that engineering piece looks like? And Jeff, we do miss you buddy.
Roy:
Oh, shout out to Jeff, Melody.
Melody:
Jeff Roth.
Roy:
Yes. Let's. I'm going to boil it down so much more that Jeff and also the producer, bill Sirrine and the Beach Glass film team would be able to address specifically. But I think for our purposes, there's two main elements that we talk about with engineering. It's the times when you have to fiddle with the volume up and down and down and up. And also the timing of when we hear Satauna’s voice, particularly in this film, when that comes in, those are the elements that the engineer, I'm really boiling it down way too much here that
Melody:
No, you're not
Roy:
The Jeff handles. So what was interesting about this film is that the producers were hands-on in the placement as well as that mix element, the volume up and down that we were hearing about earlier.
Melody:
That is awesome. And Roy, please tell us your role in all of this too, because I'm going to introduce you. It's you again with the audio description Alliance,
Roy:
I was basically everybody's personal assistant just keeping it together. My official role was audio description producer, and so we brought our team together and made sure to the best of our ability that we were communicating with the needs of the production. It is a unique film in that it's open audio description so everybody gets to hear it, you can't turn it off. So there were all sorts of opportunities there and some challenges that we all had to adapt to make this film happen. But what I loved about my role is being able to collaborate with all these professionals in the sense of that art that Colleen started talking about, that everyone's addressed adjacently if they haven't used that exact word, as well as the professionalism and the technical expertise that everyone brought.
Melody:
That is awesome. And honestly when you have to be the person that's managing that, that's a big role too, I think is we all have different, and I want to start, you launched me into such a good spot because one of the things I'm really about, as far as we all know, this is the first film that's been made where audio description is considered at the front of it and not an end result. Colleen, can you kind of talk to me about, you touched on the writing and before just saying inserted. Can you talk to me a little bit about what it was like to be able to craft it from the beginning and how that was different or anything you can walk us through that was really different?
Colleen:
Yes, this was an entirely different project for me just because as someone who's blind, I am normally editing or doing quality control of something that's already pretty finished. AD is post kind of the last accessibility for films is kind of the last box to check that the director usually doesn't even know that their stuff has audio description. And so Roy approached me with the idea and I was like, I mean I'll work with you. I don't know what's happening. And we sort of inherited a project that was sort of like a giant piecemeal of other directors had filmed specific things and we had all these interviews and it was just this huge giant roster of all these really amazing blind and deaf-blind professionals. And it's like, okay, so this is five hours of footage, so this needs to not be five hours, but it also can't be half an hour.
And they said, we want to frame it around Helen Keller's life because a FB has the Helen Keller archive. And so I was like, oh, you don't have to get permission for all of the photos or it'll be easier because the A FB owns the archive, so that's cool. And I was like, all right, well we can use, do they have the metadata? Is there an archivist that did it? Sort of short descriptions of all the pictures that are in the archive. And between that and Roy and I painstakingly going frame by frame through everything, we sort of started to develop sort of a script, like a natural script for it. And then it became very clear very quickly that we were, hang on, okay, if do this while you're editing and moving stuff around and putting new interviews in and changing the photos and stuff until you have the final cut of the film, it is really hard to develop the description for it because as it changes you're like, oh, well now we have to go back and change that. And so I think we learned a lot and I think what was very, very cool for me was getting to meet Bill and Doug, I don't know if it's serene or is it Seine? Really? Okay, yeah. Of beach glass films, meeting a real life director and getting to talk to them about audio description. And it was really the first time that I was in a situation where there were three white men sitting there listening to what I was saying and I was like, wow, it's different.
So it was really cool to be treated like a professional and to be asked and legitimately, what's your opinion on this? I think by the time we'd worked on the film for quite a long time, Roy and I probably in collaboration wrote two or three versions of this movie, audio description,
Roy:
Dozens.
Colleen:
It was really cool to work together to find the exact right word for things and self description of people or describing people was a huge conversation. And also the other driving factor that was interesting to me was the art aspect of it, meaning that I was actually talking to the director and the director was saying, I want this to be a bridge for sighted people to, everyone's going to be listening. I want it to be open audio description. I don't want it to be without it. So I want this to be kind of bridge a gap. And so there's a lot to consider there of people who've never heard ad before, never heard of ad. And so between that and the different people who were in it, it was kind of a fun mashup between a documentary and interviews and the showcasing what it's like to support other flying professionals in doing things and in listening to their stories. And I think it really showcases modern versus how far we've come since Helen Keller. And I think that's really one of the driving messages and hopefully the audio description once it was Q seed and all that conveys the director's intention as well as supports everyone else who's involved. So it was definitely a long process that was very different, but I think if we did it again, we now know a lot of things. Yeah,
Melody:
I mean that's so true. And I know one of the things I love that Bill we'll talk about is that we started this to launch it into something and it is trial in error and I love that part of it. It's just being able to say we all are willing and open. I think that's the big common theme here is that we've got to try and I love that, that we have done that and you guys have come together. I want to move into, because you brought up the quality control. So Serina, when you were doing the quality control for the movie, what really stood out for you that was different from things that you've done before where they just kind of like, okay, check this out for us. Did you have a different say in it given that we were doing the audio description in the beginning?
Serina:
That's the one thing that really stood out to me, especially with, because I've done a lot of QC on documentaries where there's a lot of still photos and normally it'll just be a photo of Helen sitting or smiling or whatever. But these were far, far more descriptive and just I learned a ton that I never knew because I never had descriptions of a lot of these archival footage and photos. Another thing that really stands out to me, and Roy pointed it out to me, he's like, by the way, you're going to notice there's kind of an inside joke in the audio description. And I forget who it was that was walking with her cane, but she was like, I want to look cute with my cane. Can she? And then the description, I think Satauna said it perfectly cute. Yeah, she did. Cute looking
Melody:
Cute. You said it was so fabulous.
Serina:
Yeah, it was nice to have that artistry to it more so than it just kind. Well, we got to fit it in here, but no, can you make more room?
Colleen:
I think I asked if we could have, Roy, didn't I ask you 10 times? Are you sure if I refer to what's happening? Are we sure that that's okay? Are we sure? I was like, I want it to be funny, but that means it's calling attention. So it is this something that was, and we're just like, yeah, just do it. Woo.
Melody:
It is so great. And Satauna you, Ryan, the way you did it was like I almost got like I could do a double take. I like you had the verbal double take on that delivery Satauna, thank you. It is awesome. Well, with that, with all this great writing with Bridget too, and Bridget I want to get to in a second, I have another but Satauna for you, how is it different? Because I mean you are all over the map. I mean you are, and I mean that you have such a range of projects you do and I've heard you in several things. How is this different for you?
Satauna:
Oh, there's a few things to say. When you were just talking about the audio description joke. I love that this film is open description. If I had to articulate all of this in one word, it would be integration. We talk a lot these days about diversity, inclusion and equity. And so there's a difference though for me between inclusion and integration. And this is integrated because you can't turn that description off. It's integrated because we had access to the filmmakers as we were making this film. And so we went through multiple iterations of description, not just writing it and I'm sure qc, but also voicing. Roy and I had multiple sessions, oh, we've changed this and we've changed this, the description has changed here and we've shortened this and we've lengthened this and all that kind of stuff in the same way that if you've ever watched, oh, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that has this, but HBO will do something where they've got a show and then at the end of the episode you see the cast and the cast is talking about the show.
Or at the very end of a long series, they'll do an entire episode where it's the going behind the scenes of how it was made and all these directors and producers and actors are talking about, and the shot was this. And then we changed the shot and then we wanted it to go like this and we wanted it to be like this and we wanted everybody to understand this. And so we tried different ideas about how to make this happen. Creativity is a process and often audio description, even though it is a process, is a process that is such an afterthought and such a kind of check the box, get it done. Okay, did we do this? Oh, is it really that important kind of process that it isn't given? Its due to really be a process. And so with this film, we had so much opportunity to engage in the same kind of thought process and change making and going through different iterations of it. And I think that brings just life to the description in a way that you can't easily do with something that you're handed to in the final. It makes more work, but creativity is work
And filmmaking is work. We don't say to anybody behind the camera doing the shoot, you know what, listen, you can only have two rolls of film or you can only have an hour on that digital camera. You got there and that's all you get. Nobody restricts that kind of work. And so this is a film that's integrated. It's a film that has so much less restriction in terms of the description and you're not going to get those audio description jokes as effectively without knowing what the intent is of the directors and producers. And that makes it okay to break that fourth wall and put those jokes in there. So there you
Melody:
Go. No, I'm so glad you talked about intent as I'm choking talking about intent because that's so critical when we're watching a show. And that rolls me over to you, Bridget, when it comes to many things and I feel like my dog is going to start barking in a second, so we just might have that and he's piping up in his things too, so that's good. I mean, what's a good video? I mean podcast without a dog in the background anyway, but one of the things I want to pop up here, Bridget, is with your background of doing live audio description, doing the narration, then coming in and working with Colleen alongside of her and then seeing the pictures, do you think that your role as a live action audio descriptive narrator brought, I think it must have brought a new creatives piece to it.
Bridget:
Yeah, one of the things that a lot of a fun skill that I love to exercise is extemporaneous description where you're just saying what you see in the moment and hopefully you have a run of show or maybe you're following a script, but you kind of don't actually know what visuals are about to pop up for you. And so to me, really making sure that the description is furthering the story, furthering the art as it was intended so that you don't get stuck being like, oh gosh, I really like that dress. She's wearing a really beautiful dress and I'm going to keep talking about that dress comes to my size. I mean sometimes you can get really, I don't know what to describe. And so I'm accidentally keep going on about this dress. And so
Melody:
One of the things that I want this dress and I've never seen the stress, I'm sorry.
Bridget:
And so one of the things that I really liked getting to be the additional writer on was that Colleen has already made a lot of these hard decisions about what is going to be described. They've already had to go through several revisions of things. And so one of the neat things that we had kind of honed down on knowing that it's going to be open ad making sure that all of when the interviewees are introduced, their visual descriptions, let's standardize those so that you're getting a head to toe succinctly that is the same for everybody. We're matching or we're saying everybody's skin tone, we're saying everybody's kind of visual identifiers so that way they become a whole person and it feels narrative instead of disruptive because when you're not used to ad, it's weird to hear it, but Colleen was saying earlier, but not when it was thoughtful and well done, then you just don't even notice it.
It just keeps reinforcing what you're seeing instead of why do they keep focusing on the dress? Come on. And I will say that one of the things that I learned from Colleen that I now use all the time is the concept of describing somebody as being in a coordinated outfit. There's a character or a person in the film that is wearing this beautiful navy blue outfit with white accents, and Colleen had described it as a coordinated outfit in navy blue with white accents. And I was like, oh my God, that's what you would call it. That's just exactly what that is. And I always struggle with detail, detail, detail, and you're like, no, it's a coordinated outfit. And that is just what you call an outfit that is actually the matching top and bottom to something that you would've bought together at the store at the same time. And it's like, oh, so thanks Colleen. I stole it.
Melody:
Yeah, I love it. And now I really want to go shopping really, really bad. And I feel like you guys, all of you would be the best people to shop with because we would just get really detailed on that
Bridget:
Touch everything
Melody:
I call it. Well, I went to, when I got my dog, my friend, she calls it touch shopping and I do it now. I'm like, I'm going to go touch shopping. I'll see you later. So I feel like we all need to adopt that one, but I really love all this. We talk so much Satauna, I love how you brought up looking at things. I feel the same way that integration is way different than inclusion. And what thing I want to add here is when I've seen the film in the audience, to your point, I've had people come up to me and say, oh my gosh, sighted individuals, I never would've noticed other things about this movie had there not been this audio description. And I did hear when they first came on that it's like, but then it faded into the background. I've never heard anything of it distracted me. So thank you for bringing that up. And Roy, I want to get to you are such, I think we can all say this in this room, an advocate for everything that we're talking about here. We've talked about this film and having an opportunity and you've been such an advocate to get producers to really listen and bring this to the table. What did this project mean to you and anything that you want to add to this? I think there's a lot here.
Roy:
One of the first things that comes to mind, Melody, is that in those multiple passes that we were providing, the audio description was not just for the audience, that it was also for our blind team outside of the ad team. We have both blind and sighted people that worked on the ad team, but also as a producer of this film and all the behind the scenes things that were happening, I think it's important to also know that there were also other members of the production who were blind. And so audio description was part of that work process, not just for the audience. I think about the expression, nothing about us without us. We were living nothing without us. So it's not just nothing about us without us, which is true, but it's also nothing without us that we were modeling audio description for our own team, whether that was the composer or the other engineer that was working on the production itself and some other team members including consultants and advisors and yourself and a FBI guess decision makers on top of that.
So I think one of the fascinating experiences that I'd like to talk about is if I could be so vulnerable, is the assumptions of all of our departments, both production and our ad team. Any film is going to be unprecedented. It's not like we have a step-by-step guide for each step of the way to get from the beginning to when someone can watch it on a TV screen or wherever it ends up in the theater, that it is its own uncharted and unprecedented endeavor and that we all were adapting. And one of the most beautiful things about I think our team that we assembled for the audio description as well as the production itself, is that when we worked through those assumptions that there was communication and we were figuring out, Hey, this is what I think we need to do. Oh, I didn't know that that's what you do. Oh, well we do it this way. Oh well that's going to affect this. And so we were really talking so deeply, not just because of the open 80 aspect, but also working together on the audio description side. So it was really fascinating to see how we worked through those assumptions and there was such a beautiful vulnerability from the production team to also the ad team, and it was fascinating to be able to have that openness from every team member that we worked with.
Melody:
I'm so glad that you brought that up. We had our Helen Keller Achievement report. Steven let who did the score, the movie, the music for the score of the film, he came in to watch it. He just walked out. He's like, I'm so nervous. It was just so beautiful. And I bring that up and for all of you here, it's just to say that it is a vulnerable space when you're doing something new and communication is such a huge, huge thing. I was going to move into the next, and anybody can take this one, but because I think you all might have something about this, so if everybody could kind of go about this, and I guess we can maybe start with Colleen again if you'd like, is again, we brought up Bill and Beach Glass Films, being the producer, not this being the first film that they've done with audio description in the forefront. It's got to be you both and knowing just very small amount about audio description, just the processes you guys have all talked about, there's the science and the art, right? So you're marrying two sciences with the art piece. What were some things that challenges that you felt like you overcame or wins, whatever you want to use, and how did that enhance maybe something that you already do? That was a lot right there.
Colleen:
Yeah, this is Colleen. I was going to Roy, I don't know if you want to answer first. I will say the thing that came to mind for me is that I know plenty of individuals who have done audio description and captions for their own films.
So I've independent film or experimental film. I've had people in classes or just as colleagues that have, they're thinking audio description from the beginning because it's them, they're doing the whole film itself. But this was more of a, what I would call an entertainment industry director and production model. You're bringing in somebody who's worked on the large mouse films and big company names in the entertainment world, and this is a project that felt so important. And Roy mentioned the vulnerability of just people who were so afraid to mess up something that it almost hindered a little bit at the beginning. You have that learning curve of like, no, you can say blind or you can say, see in front of me, it's fine. You have all of that. It wasn't like they'd had training and then come to, so it was how much do you impart as like, this is usually how this goes, but again, this isn't usual, so how do you want to, and I think one of the big things I learned that I think could work really well is audio description should then be its own production department.
So if you have hair and makeup and costumes and camera and you have the director and everybody, all the different production teams roll up to the director. But if you're going to do audio description from the beginning and have the director have it as part of the vision in a way that's almost forced, it's going to be open audio description, everyone's hearing it, so you're going to have to do this. Then it was almost like, okay, so this should be its own production team. And that discovering that took a while discovering different resources and stuff within ourselves, bringing skills to stuff of, sure, I don't know what, it's midnight. I don't know what, so that's what it made me think of. I don't know, Roy, if you,
Melody:
No, I love how you're saying that it should all roll up and it should be a part of a part. It just should be. And I feel like that's what you guys have started or did you have anything you wanted to add to that?
Roy:
One of the things that our team, this audio description department has is experience in working in films in such a detached way. Satauna had said this earlier in the conversation about that integration and if there's anything that I think is the biggest takeaway here is that we all have grown. We all came to this with incredible strengths as Colleen said, and powerful skills. This is a really great team and we're even better because of this film. And I think the challenges weren't just live ad, but also from, I don't want to speak for the filmmakers, but with them inheriting content. I remember countless times where there were conversations of if we had the opportunity to shoot this, we would have blank. And so there were all these parameters that even they were put under the
Timing, the turnaround time. Colleen mentioned midnight, we happened to be on the same time zone at the time when that was happening. And there were a lot of things that had to happen, but with all the different balls that we were juggling or plates that we were spinning or whatever analogy you want to use, the thing that really carried forward was the filmmaker's vision of the story that wanted to be told. And discovering that story in the documentary of how it was going to be told and what was so important. I remember the countless spreadsheets that we were sharing, both from the audio description side and also the production side where there were some really specific notes in our experience is usually something that we take responsibility for, but the care and the concern and the commitment to quality and excellence that Beach Glass brought to this film took that and ran with it in a way that was so beautiful and results in the film that you saw. And what's really interesting is that if we lived in a parallel universe and we were to start over and do the exact same film again, it'd be a completely different film from the shots that were chosen to the people that were interviewed to the way the ad was created. So it is its own thing that's happening right now. I feel like I'm kind of meandering. I want to let other people
Melody:
Speak. No, I love that. And one of the things to add that is all of you've seen the film in different aspects from narrating to writing to quality control to all of it and putting it together. And one of the things I love that Bill always says is the cast and these people, and I say this to you guys, is that vulnerability people were very vulnerable, telling the good bad and the ugly of living with blindness in so many different in every facet of our lives. So the fact that that's such a telling thing here and it's so true. So can you talk about your, because I know that I've heard you in so many different things and I love how I almost felt like the range of you brought so much attention. Was that different for you than some of the other things that you've done?
Satauna:
I think that we had, people have talked about timelines with this film, and yet for me, we had time to do it again. We had multiple iterations, multiple sessions of description where oftentimes it's, here's a script, get it done yesterday, and that wasn't how this worked. And also oftentimes with description, it's me in a booth with the media and I'm voicing and performing that description and it's just me. So I'm making choices. I'm under a timeline and that's how that goes. In this case, I had Roy as my session director, task master or session director.
He was so great to work with Roy, he was so much fun. So we got to do multiple takes of the same line with different intentions or I just got to be the performer, let somebody else direct and think about the intention. Not that voice actors don't think about intention, we certainly do, but when you have another pair of ears in the room, it makes a difference. That was something that is unique to this process, not just another pair of ears in the room, but a pair of ears that has a lot of experience in performing description himself, has a lot of deep understanding about the value of description and a lot of experience performing description, but also other kinds of voice stuff. So it's not that I've never been in a room with an audio description director talking me through a session, but this guy knew this film, knew the intent, knew where he wanted to take it, and that makes a difference. Again, a lot of times you've got a director who just, well, can you say it faster? It needs to fit into three seconds instead of five. That's kind of the level of direction that you're getting. You're not getting a lot of direction about, can we make it sound more like this? Can we have this intention with this line? So yeah, lots of integrity, lots of integration, lots of fun working with Roy on this project
Melody:
And a lot of like, oh my gosh, how do we figure this out too? I guess it's just how when you're trying something new and it can be scary, and I just want to put that out because I want people to really get in with the level of work that went into this.
Bridget, when you're talking about the pictures and then writing with Colleen, how was this different for anything that you've ever worked on as well?
Bridget:
Something that I was just really struck with, a lot of times in a documentary, there's going to be kind of that B-roll, the kind of filler visuals that keep sighted people interested in the talking heads or something that happened that's going on. And two things that I was really struck by were how contemporary Helen Keller is, and you don't think of her as being very contemporary, but it's like she only passed away in 1968. And so really wanting to make sure that when we're seeing Helen throughout her entire life on the screen, really helping to give a sense of place in the ad of where Helen is in her life when she's doing this extraordinary thing that she's a young woman here, she's a mature person here, she's an old lady here, and just how full and rich, the amount of people that she met in her lifetime and what an ambassador she was, really comes out in this film.
And then I was also from a lot of projects that I'll work on if there's a disability aspect in them, it's be so specific to pointing out the disability and pointing out the limitations in these things. And I was really struck in the visuals, how many power signals were in there. You've got, she's A CEO and it's not mentioned that she's A CEO except that it's on a poster. And so it was like we need to make sure that that is in there. She's also the one I think wearing the coordinated outfit. You've got Christine, who's a famous chef, and that is noted how famous she is because it's a headline in a magazine cover. So it's like all of these visual cues, we need to make sure the power of these people, especially the power of the women in this film, how far things have advanced.
There's always more work to be done, but I was really struck by all of the little indicators that we really wanted to make sure we're in the ad to really drive home the independence of people, the power positions that they have and the influence that they have. You've got Lachy at the Grammys, so let's make sure that those things that might just be visually conveyed are also conveyed in the ad. And I think Colleen did a really great job of getting those in there. And then I just was kind of finessing to me, there was a moment, I remember it's two people crossing a street and it's like, oh, but it's really important. I'm a white sighted person. But to me I'm like, oh, but what I see when I'm seeing those two people walking across the street is I see a person using their cane and somebody next to them that is walking with their guide dog.
And to me that just screams independence. There is no companion with anybody. And so I'm like, that to me is something that if you're going to have open ad, let's use it to also educate the sighted audience that is listening to this. Oh yeah, that person is, there is a lack of things that you just didn't think about because you're seeing two people rock across the street, but it's like let's notice how they're doing it. And yeah, there was just so much power in the film that I really liked. I liked that that was the aspect of blindness and low vision that we were seeing was a powerful one.
Melody:
I couldn't agree more. I mean, back to changing a FB, changing the narrative of blindness is that we need to be doing that. We can talk all day about what that's been like. It's the narrative of things that come in, and that's even w mentioned in the film too, but seeing things in a powerful way and even just being in here with all of you today and hearing that force and the collaboration. Serina, one of the things that I also wanted to ask you just as we're moving through this, talking about things are different, quality control, I kind of feel like having somebody in quality control in front and center, it also needs to be there. Did you feel a lot more powerful with this than other jobs that you've done? It
Serina:
Did. I was just thinking and sitting here listening to everyone talk, and one of my mantras is accessibility shouldn't be an afterthought. I say that a lot to people and I really liked how this project allowed us to start getting that message out there that it is possible to have the fact that audio description is going to be a part of the movie from the very beginning. There's no reason why we can't leave a little extra space here or there to really be able to give an audience that can't discern with their eyes what's going on on the screen so that it can add that much more to the understanding of the storyline or to the joke that everyone else is laughing at and things like that too. So it was really nice and I hope that it sets a precedent for projects to be had.
Melody:
I do too. I do too. And again, I'm going to give Jeff, we miss you a shout out again. So for things like if anybody can speak for Jeff or the mixing the sound design, what would be different for that in this case?
Satauna:
This is another example of integration for me that when
Melody:
Bring it sister,
Satauna:
When film is mixed, well, the description simply becomes another integrated story element. You don't have the volume so high. I am really up against my mic right now talking to you, and then everybody else is talking back here and all the excitement of the film. You've got this big fun, exciting scene and you can't hear anything but that voice, the voice of the description and it's in your ears. And that happens still today a lot,
Melody:
A hundred percent.
Satauna:
They duck the audio and it really, at least for me, just completely takes me out of the story. So the integration of mixing something well where the description simply becomes another element that is mixed in and it's a weaving of those elements altogether. So I just wanted to point that out and having something, A lot of times when you are mixing description, which I've done some of, sometimes what you just get is a stereo track or you get the surround sound tracks, but you don't get the sound design track on one and then the voices and then the music. You just get these tracks of everything altogether and you somehow have to squeak the description in with all of it without being able to modify any of it. And so having it integrated is a really big deal, at least from where I'm sitting, it just provides more control. It makes the whole experience more seamless.
Melody:
No, I love that you said that. I was just watching something the other night too, and I don't talk about the narration, but let me just say, I've never had this happen before, but the ad was actually slowed down. It was back in the eighties when you had tapes and you wide them and they go like that. I'm like, what? Really? What? I totally get what you're saying. And it was something special and not in a good way. So I love that you're saying it. One of the things that for our listeners here is talking about we're all sitting here in this virtual room all with different backgrounds, all different cited, unsighted. I know they say a hybrid ad team or even I would just, can we talk about just the importance and I'm not even going to say inclusion because I like this integration thing we're doing right now, so I'm going to talk at that one, but even to Roy's point of we're now even stronger in what you do on your daily professions, what is it like and what did you learn working with each other? Anybody can go.
Colleen:
This is Colleen. I will say that one of the things that we deal with a lot now, and I will probably I could throw to my blind compatriots is that companies are trying to automate some of the process of audio description similar to captions. There's auto captions that people use and that is happening and as I think all of us here are trying to push back on, there's not an element of the ad that you can do that with right now. I, because listen to that film, the one we just did now listen to the ad of this. I'm making it, I'm making it by, but this person had two hours to write it, so the writing is what they could make it. Plus there was a style guide that refrained them from mentioning any product names and any of the color blue. So they couldn't do that and they were restricted by that.
And then somebody only quality controlled the script. There is no quality control of the final cut of it. Cool. Okay. Whoever voiced it. Alright, and then we're going to use just the AI mixing thing and what I've noticed is that it'll be not a bad script, not a bad audio description performance, but you can tell that it was auto mixed because instead of ducking gracefully up and down and to use SAT's, word weaving as kind of another soundtrack and another sound engineering layer to support the film, it slams up and down just as Satauna demonstrated. It is just something that I think is starting to show in the automation of something like that where when you want quality and quantity, if I'm watching an instructional video, sure, throw the TTS throw the loud weird mixing in, I get it. But if we go to the theater or to go to see a film or you want to be immersed in the atmosphere, you want to be able to see yourself or hear yourself in the film and the art and be able to talk about it with people and have the great experience that all of these hundreds of people took time to create this thing.
And so I loved that. I knew that each person who was involved, any name that was mentioned to me, I was like, thank you so much. I was very insistent to Roy. I want someone qc, make sure it is a woman of color. Make sure, because I was like, there's elements in here of Helen Keller's sort of modern, she does have kind of a contemporary feel as Bridget said. So there are pictures of her in South Africa and different eating with all black soldiers, military and stuff. And I was like, you need to make sure that's culturally competent and that it doesn't sugarcoat something. But it also shows that she was a little radical and kind of the way that the power element of her using her privilege to make a difference instead of being someone who did have to sit at home and write some books. I think that was a cool thing to come to. And I was so happy that it was all people and I knew I could trust everybody involved. As soon as he said a name, I was like, yeah. Yes, thank you. I'm
Roy:
Going to jump in about the audio description Network Alliance. The whole mission of that, which is basically a credit list and also a podcast, the ad and a presents, is to really showcase the contribution, the craft, the skills and perspectives of still underrepresented entertainment industry professionals that are serving the ad audience. And one of the biggest thanks that I feel in that integration of the production with the ad team is being able to send our entire ad team an email saying, Hey, check out your IMDB list that we were credited. And that credit isn't just about, Hey, look at us, it's legitimizing the work that we've done. We are putting our names on it.
There's an accountability factor, but it's also more than just accountability. It's also saying, Hey, these are the people that worked on this film. It is giving those roles names. This is something that I've been really excited to talk about and that not just a one person project, the ad, I believe everyone's mentioned something specific about our whole department, the whole team, that it's not just one person and by naming names that gives educates. This is a fully produced audio production within the film, and by having those credits, it supports the vision of what the AD and A stands for in valuing and celebrating our professional ad talents. And it's also kind of fun
Melody:
In moving forward. What is it either, what do you want people to know or what changes would you like to see and how could we continue propelling this forward? Just how Roy talked about is having names actually recommended the amount that I've already learned just from listening to all of you. What would you want the world to know in entertainment or anywhere we're bringing an audio description to grow it and just propel it forward? Bridget, I'm going to start with you. I'm putting you on the spot. I'm sorry.
Bridget:
No, that's okay. Actually because Satauna kind of touched on it earlier is just literally how long it takes. So if we could please stop with these really fast deadlines. I mentioned earlier I keep very meticulous spreadsheets and notes of everything on an entertainment film. I can only script about five minutes and hour and I max out at about four hours in a day on a project before my brain is fried. And so when you think that it's like, yeah, that was a two and a half hour or a two hour film, it took me 22 hours to write it. So let's think about that when we're making our deadlines and I am just also one piece of the ad puzzle as a writer or as a narrator and stuff. So if you have to give everybody that same consideration, let's stop with a really fast turnaround, especially on things that are more entertainment stuff that's already been out in the world for a while. Let's take the time to get it done. Right. And Colleen talking about AI earlier, no, I spent part of that 22 hours was literally 30 minutes trying to figure out what was in somebody's hand because there was a visual cue in there that I knew was going to be very important, and I don't think AI would've spent the amount of time it may have just said she has something in her hands,
But gosh darn it, after half an hour I finally figured it out and I was like, oh, I'm glad I figured this out because this was very important to the character development that was happening in that moment. So yeah, I think people realizing how long the art and science of AD can take, that would be nice.
Melody:
I pretty much think that producers are creating art of their films and I just talked with beach glass films like being able to put all that work in. Also too, of the 90 hours of film that was over 90 hours, that was shot just to, even from that perspective of cutting it down and being able to give all that extra time and looking at it as an art.
Bridget:
If you've taken that much time to craft your film, you should think about taking the amount of time to make sure that your film is conveyed in the way you intended to everybody. Yeah, to the entire audience.
Melody:
I agree 100%. What about you, Satauna?
Satauna:
I agree with Bridgette. Just recognizing the value, the time it takes to create that value, the appreciation the audience has for that value. And that's bigger than just, oh, I'm so grateful. There's description. Yeah, I'm grateful my electricity works too, and when it goes off, I don't really care how long it takes the well, I do care how long it takes them to fix it. But what I'm really excited about is when it comes back on, I'm not really thinking as a consumer about how it's crafted, but as a professional in the industry, I recognize that filmmaking takes effort and time and description does as well. So I would love to see more open description. I would love to see you are watching audio description on X channel and if you want to turn it off, this is what you do.
Melody:
That would
Satauna:
Pretty
Melody:
Cool. Yes.
Satauna:
So it's exciting to see what this film is and how it's worked out and what happens going forward
Melody:
About you. Serina.
Serina:
I also agree with Bridget c Satauna. It's not that hard to say love it and sat Ana. No, I know you can take it. So I really, really want to see audio description be part of the production from the very beginning when they're mapping out where they're going to shoot these scenes and when they're doing edits and all that. I want audio description to be from the very beginning of, hey, we might not have to add as much audio description if you just said this extra two words as part of the script or just different things that can make it more universally designed so that it's not an afterthought. I know I've already said that, but it really feels like in so many things it's an afterthought and it's someone from the quality control lens. It's really hard for me, and I'm sure Satauna and Colleen and Bridget, and even Roy I know experienced this too.
When you turn on the audio descrip and sometimes it's really hard to enjoy the movie or the series because you're like, oh, they definitely did not do the audio descrip right here and here and here, and they miss this and they miss that. So it'd be really nice for it to just be, if it's part of the production from the beginning, it's done right then because then the director's going to see it and be like, no, I don't want that described that way. That's not accurate. Or we need to change this or change that. So that's my big dream. One day it'll happen.
Melody:
Well, Reggie, Colleen and I need to know first, is your hair purple or pink today or both?
Colleen:
It is currently pink, but growing out, because I have not had time,
Melody:
I'm going to go for an ombre look then is
Colleen:
Ombre. I love it.
The ombre as far as everybody get ready for two more hours. Okay. Oh no. A list of things. No, I'll try to do one. I think that in general, the maybe recognition of audio description, I as something that is not just a volunteer service, but that we can move it into a place of people being able to study this and mentor and be aware of it. Any kind of education in health class or whatever. When you're growing up, a lot of people, you're not told how to interact with people with disabilities. You're not told how to interact with somebody who's different than you. And so everybody has a fear of anyone who's especially physically different, some sort of blindness. We can't really hide for very long if you're blind. And so I think having a recognition that we are a legitimate audience and that we are a legitimate asset to the profession.
Roy often has said audio description was invented by blind people for blind people. And I think it is best, the best audio description that I know of is the kind where you have sighted and blind people working together because you've got the perspective already there and a certain amount of lived experience that just a sighted person, the world is so visual and it's made for visual people. And so yeah, I would say that recognition as, I don't know, it sounds weird to say more legitimate, but as people and as professionals and as a profession, I think oddly people treat things more seriously when they pay for it. So get out your wallet, whatever.
Melody:
That was lovely. I loved. No, I completely agree. I think when you put in those, you guys all kind of said it, when you put in the things at the last minute, you start to feel like you are a little last minute as the end user and that's not the message that we need to be sending. Roy, what about you my friend?
Roy:
I'm loving it. Everyone is saying from awareness to the enemy of time that Bridget was talking about to value values is so big in so many different aspects of the world right now. And I think this is not a self-promotion. I've got a book coming out, but my important message about that is not the self-promotion, but in the idea of what we're talking about right now is the impact of professionalism. That is one of the main core things of the book. And when I think about professionalism, it is value and it's also worth, Colleen is so true when she says that this is a worthy endeavor and this is not an obligation. It doesn't have to be an obligation, it's an opportunity. And I've always been looking for the win-win when it comes to collaboration with production and audio description and looking for those opportunities and the ways that this can make the impact that it needs to be. And it makes a big difference when there's a hundred million dollars film and it's kind of phoned in by someone that sounds amateur, that that worth has an impact. So I'm going to star worth and value.
Melody:
Love it. We've covered so much here today and I can't thank you guys enough for joining us today and being real just advocates your passion. It's really just, I can't even put it into words what it means. I know that people are going to want to learn about what it is you do. If we could just start with Roy, if you could, guys, I'm going to ask you to give us your social, how people can follow you, how they can learn about audio description, how they could even maybe get coached in any of these areas that we've talked about. Roy, how could people get ahold of you if they want to learn more?
Roy:
Sure. My website is roysamuelson.com. I'm also on LinkedIn as Roy Samuelson.
Melody:
Nice. Serina.
Serina:
Sorry, I had to find my button. The keystroke, the best way to contact me is honestly via my Facebook. You can find me Serina Gilbert, spelled S-E-R-I-N-A, but I'm most active on my Facebook page called Blindy Girl, which is B-L-I-N-D-Y-G-I-R-L.
Melody:
Love it. Love it. Colleen.
Colleen:
I am most often to be found in any form of audio description training retreats. So if you adtrainingretreats.com and info@adtrainingretreats.com, LinkedIn, Facebook, all of that good jazz. That's the best way to get a hold of me.
Melody:
Satauna.
Satauna:
I have an uncommon name. It is S-A-T-A-U-N-A, Satauna think Madonna arrives. And if you Google it, you will absolutely find me. But you can also email me at info@Satauna.com. I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter, although I don't really check my Twitter, so I guess I'm not on Twitter, but I am on LinkedIn and Facebook and like I said, Google me or email me at info@Satauna.com.
Melody:
Lovely. And Bridget, bring us home, my friend.
Bridget:
Hi. So I am at bridgetmelton.com. I don't know why I had to think about that part. Melton is spelled M as in Mary, E-L-T-O-N, and then a muscle on LinkedIn and for just a way to connect and everything. If I may plug, we've got two of the admins in here, the description discussion on Facebook, so audio description discussion. It is an absolutely invaluable resource to connect the audience with the professionals and the amount of things that get discussed in there. And I mean, we're talking nitty gritty. There was just a hilarious discussion on describing steamy spicy stuff and the word choice in that. And the fact that you're getting immediate feedback from so many people that truly, deeply in their core care about what that word choice is going to be in that steamy scene. I can't think of a better group to just be in. So audio description discussion. Thank you Roy and Serina for being admins of that.
Serina:
I'm over here smiling because I know exactly which thread you're talking about, and when I approved it, I was like, oh man, this is going to give so many comments. And I think the last time I looked there were like 200 comments on.
Melody:
I need to go look at that.
Bridget:
I adore that group.
Melody:
I'm so glad. Okay, well everybody join that group because we'll all be there and it'll be fun. I mean, we've talked about everything. Fine, guys, thank you so much. This has been a great time, guys. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Possibilities podcast here at the American Foundation for the Blind. Have a great rest of your day and check back with us soon. Take care. Bye.
Narrator:
You've been listening to A FB Possibilities, a production of the American Foundation for the Blind. Your host is Melody Goodspeed. Produced and edited by Tony Stephens at the Pickle Factory in Baltimore, Maryland, digital media support from Kelly Gasque and Breanna Kerr. Our theme music is by Zizo, compliments of Art list.io. To learn more about the American Foundation for the Blind or to support our work, visit www.afb.org and be sure to like and subscribe and share this episode.
Audio Tag:
AFB!
