Neva: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the American Foundation for the Blind Centennial Conversation, Women in Leadership: The Intersection of Gender and Visual Impairment. My name is Neva Fairchild, and I have the honor of moderating a panel of amazing women. I am a 60-ish-year-old woman with white hair wearing a navy-blue dress and a teal jacket. I am sitting in my home office in Dallas, Texas. I serve as the National Aging and Vision Loss Specialist for the American Foundation for the Blind. And at present, I am the president of the Association for Education and Rehabilitation of the Blind and Visually Impaired, the professional association for people who work in the field of visual impairment. I'd like for our panelists to introduce themselves now, and I'm going to start with Kathy Martinez. Kathy, will you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your story as a woman who is blind and in many different leadership roles?
Kathy:
Well, thank you, Neva, and I wanted to say thank you to AFB and kudos to my other panelists. It's an honor and a delight to be on this panel and I felt so thrilled when I got invited, I was like, woohoo! So well, first of all, I am also a 60-ish woman. I am a Latina woman. I have salt and pepper hair, I guess you could say. I am wearing a black sweater with a collared shirt, a blue and white collared shirt, and a necklace with a blue stone. What can I say? I am currently serving as the CEO and President of Disability Rights Advocates, which is a litigation organization working on the behalf of people with disabilities. I'm three weeks into that job. Before that, I led the disability and accessibility work for Wells Fargo for six years and before that, I served as Assistant Secretary of the Department of Labor for the Office of Disability Employment Policy. I have a son. What can I say? I'm a lesbian, I already said I was Latina, and I am a very proud disability activist and advocate.
Neva: Thank you very much, Kathy. Stephanae McCoy is also one of our panelists. Steph, would you introduce yourself, please, tell us a bit about your story.
Stephanae: Sure, thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be among these distinguished panelists, I'm so delighted and nervous to be here, however, I'm just really thrilled, I think above all else. I'm a 60-year-old, medium-brown-skinned woman with short dark hair. I'm wearing a black tee, adorned with silver writing that says, "fashion is for everyone." It's made out of Swarovski crystals, really cool. I'm wearing it with a teal jacket accented with silver leaf earrings. I am the founder of Bold Blind Beauty, where real beauty transcends barriers. I created Bold Blind Beauty to empower women who are blind or low vision to embrace their beauty, to increase their confidence, to claim their power, and to boldly break barriers.
I'm an intensely focused, introverted creative, who is, and always has been, passionate about social justice. I'm also the mother of now three grown sons. I'm a gee-gee to two young grandchildren. I lost my sight later in life. I lost my confidence. At that point in time, I was working for Deloitte. I had just received a promotion a few years earlier. I had gotten married. I bought a home. My husband and I had all sorts of plans, none of which included blindness. My blindness journey spanned four years. At the end of that four-year period, I heard what no one ever wants to hear. The doctors looked at me and said, "McCoy, we're sorry, there's no more we can do for you." And with that, I was declared legally blind.
At that point, I was referred to several service organizations who provided me the adaptations I needed to continue working, and to continue navigating my life as a person with sight loss. That helped on the physical level, but on the emotional level, I struggled. I looked all over for support groups, I tried to find people to talk to that could understand what I was going through. In my sphere of friends and family, there was no one who was blind and no one who really understood what I was dealing with, and it wasn't until the paratransit service I was using, I met up with a blind woman who is now a very good friend of mine. She introduced me to the Pennsylvania Council of the Blind.
Once I fully immersed myself in that organization, through volunteerism and advocacy, it was there that I could see blind people, and people with low vision not only surviving, but thriving, and that's what I wanted. They became my mentors, my friends, they carried me through, and they are part of the reason why I created Bold Blind Beauty, and it's my way of giving back to others who are also new to this process, and looking for a place to find themselves. So, thank you so much for allowing me to come on here and to share my voice with you.
Neva: Thank you, Steph. Next, we have Sumaira Latif. Sam, would you introduce yourself please?
Sam: Ah, yes. Hi, good morning, good afternoon, everybody. Thank you, AFB, again for the opportunity to come and speak with you and these wonderful women today. It's just really incredible to have this chance. I was just reflecting on what Stephanae was saying and thinking that yes, when I was growing up, bold blind beauties didn't exist, and we didn't have role models. I never watched any kind of panel discussion like we're having today, so, I think this is incredible, and really kudos to AFB for pulling something like this together. I think there are so many more women that can be on here, it's really amazing.
So, my name is Sumaira, people and friends call me Sam Latif, I'm based just outside London in the UK. I'm wearing a navy-blue dress, as well, and I wear a head scarf. My head scarf is very colorful. It's got red, beiges, mustard and grays, I think. It's supposed to be very nice and I am a first generation Scottish-Pakistani, and I work at Procter & Gamble and I've been there for a long time, and the first kind of half of my career has been working in IT, and you know, a generic, IT-management type of roles. Working on brands that you may be familiar with, like Tide or Pampers or Head and Shoulders, and more recently, in the last few years, I was very lucky to pursue my dream job. My job doesn't even feel like work, because my job is to make P&G, and its products, its offices, its entire environment, accessible for people with disabilities. So, I really love my job, and And I am so grateful to be here today to talk about it a little.
Neva: Thank you so much. We're so glad to have you, Sam. Our last panelist is Janni Lehrer-Stein. Janni, would you please tell us a little bit about your story?
Janni: Thank you, Neva, and it's such an honor to be in the company of these remarkably powerful women. And I want to thank AFB for kicking off this remarkable centennial celebration by addressing the issues that intersect us as women and people with disabilities. I am from San Francisco, California. I am a Caucasian woman, proudly in my mid-60s, and I am wearing a white jacket with a black sweater underneath. I have curly brown hair and brown eyes. I am by profession, a retired attorney and a disability rights advocate.
Currently, I serve as the vice chair for the DNC Disability Council, and I am so privileged to be a member of the Board of Trustees of the AFB, and to be the head of its public policy and research committee. I also serve on the boards of The Foundation Fighting Blindness and The National Academy of Science, Engineering, and Medicine Forum on Aging, Disability and Independence. I was privileged to be appointed by President Obama to two terms on the National Council on Disability, and I have also served to advise disability policy to some political candidates over the years. I think this is a truly important moment to acknowledge and recognize, as the AFB passes its 100-year mark, there are not many nonprofits who can really rise to that level, in terms of experience, and all that they have contributed to the lives of people with disabilities. And so, I really look forward to engaging in this discussion with you as we go forward and we address these very important issues. Thanks.
Neva: Thank you so much, Janni. When you think about all of us having visual impairments, different levels, different times in our lives when we experienced it, different influences throughout our lives, let's start with talking about those people who influenced you. Who gave you that drive to be the leader you are as a woman, as a woman who is visually impaired, or blind, and what qualities those people, because it might not be a woman who influenced you in this way, are. And let's start with Janni. Let's, we'll start backwards from our introductions. Janni, who were those people that influenced you, and how did they influence you? You don't have to name names if you're not comfortable doing that, but how did they guide you, what qualities did they bring that you wanted to mimic, and that you wanted to take for your own and grow with?
Janni: Thank you for the question, because I think it really is important, in that it embraces the idea of community for us as women and as people with disabilities. The person who has been a huge mentor in my life in terms of my work as a disability rights advocate is, you're right, not a woman, but a man, Congressman Tony Coehlo, who is the iconic leader of the national disability rights movement and the originating author of the Americans with Disabilities Act, which is the seminal piece of legislation that enables us to seek full inclusion and opportunities as Americans with disabilities.
That said, there have been many women who have been very significant influences in my life. In the area of my profession when I practiced law, those would include Barbara Rosetti and Janet Bentley. As a disability rights advocate, Linda Wetters, Judy Heumann, my fellow colleague, Kathy Martinez, and so many more. I think the single unifying characteristic of all of these remarkable individuals is their ability to focus their energy and their tremendous intellectual talent and creativity to take on seriously hard problems in our community and the world, and to seek solutions to them, and to do so with absolutely unrelenting and dogged perseverance and tenacity in order to make significant changes that have benefited the lives of literally millions in the country and around the world.
Neva:
Great. Do any of the rest of you have anything you would like to add to that topic?
Sam: I think for me, when I was reflecting on women in particular, but people who have mentored me throughout my life, I think what I notice is that each and every one of them were comfortable to step outside of their comfort zone, and they were brave in taking risks, bold, but they were really incredible at bringing people together with love and compassion, and really unleashed the potential that I had and what I find really incredible, it was my mum, you know, she was first-generation Pakistani, not speaking English very well, not understanding the social norms, but she allowed me to, you know, to blossom in the way I wanted.
My mum didn't have huge expectations. I don't mean that in any kind of negative way, but you know, I was the first lady in my family to go to university, to have a career, to go live independently, without having to be married to someone before I left home. That required love, compassion, and also bravery on the part of my mum, because she allowed me to do that without worrying about what, you know, others in our culture, what they would say.
And then if I just reflect more recently at P&G, there's been an incredible amount of women who have shown similar types of traits. You know, our beauty care CEO has declared that all beauty products are going to be accessible. You know. She's really recognized that, oh my god, this is a big business opportunity, and it's the right thing to do, and she was the first to declare in our company that, you know, we want to make things more accessible for the 20% of population that has disabilities. So, I see there's so many more examples in and outside of the company, but these are all things that they have in common.
Kathy:
This is Kathy. I think we have to, for those of us who were born blind, and we're lucky enough to have families that really encouraged us, we have to shout out to those families. I'm in a family of six siblings, I have another blind sister as many of you may know, Peggy, and we are the middle two of the six kids. My parents and my larger Latino family had no clue about disability, so not only do they have one, but they had two kids, which was kind of a blessing. At least for us it was, for me and Peggy, because at least we had each other, so we had a touchstone, right? I think in terms of mentoring, or mentors, and folks that really impacted my life, I have to say my family.
I was also very impacted by other social movements, the farm workers movement is one, and I had an 8th grade teacher who read me a book called "Sweatshops In The Sun," about child labor, which completely changed my life. And then it goes from there. I will give a shout out to Gerald Baptiste, an African American man living in Berkeley, who was a huge mentor to me, and of course, all the women, including Judy Heumann and Janni and so many people who saw some potential. They told me, not only did they see a potential, but they also told me, you know, when I was not doing things that they, when I was doing things that they didn't like, so not only did I get positive feedback, but I got some really pretty strong, you know, like feedback that was not so positive, but very constructive, how about that?
And when I was at Wells Fargo, I had people who believed that disability should be woven into the fabric of the company and the culture, and our products and services, and so, I think they really taught me how to survive in a corporate culture, and as well as, you know, and how to lead such a big effort, like Sam is doing. P&G, hats off to P&G, man. You guys are doing very cool stuff, and I just want to say that I've had mentors who are disabled, who were nondisabled, white, black, male, you know, every imaginable type, and I'm very grateful for all of them.
Neva:
Wonderful, thank you.
Stephanae: I'd like to add, this is Steph. I'd like to add similar to Kathy, I wasn't born blind and really didn't have anybody in my family who had a disability. However, my grandmother and my aunt in particular, were very instrumental in helping me to become the person that I am today. They had very strong values. They were strong women. They weren't afraid to share their voice or maybe I should rephrase that: My aunt wasn't afraid to share her voice. My grandmother was more introverted like I am, but she had a quiet strength to her and it was the way she carried herself.
Later in life, it was a man who helped me to sort of see the value within, when I couldn't see it myself, and he became my best friend, and he saw something in me that I just didn't see, and it was because of him that I was able to break barriers that I didn't even know really existed, but it was the way I had sort of patterned my life with some of the decisions that I made growing up. And I was able to do it because, you know, having someone believe in me, that made all the difference, and when I got to Deloitte, there was a gentleman there who I consider a mentor, although I don't think he would. I did look up to him. His name was Rick Mitchell and he was the first low-vision person that really was sort of in my life, in the work environment that I saw rise up through the ranks, and you know, I didn't know him that well, but we would have these conversations.
We did work within the same group, and you know, when I began losing my sight, I did go to him and would talk about some of my concerns and things, and he would always tell me, just like my previous friend, he would say, you know, you work at such a level that it, you know, I would put so much pressure on myself, that it was almost more than what, I guess, what he would say like the average person would do or whatever. Not, I don't want to put anybody down or anything like that, it's not like that, but it was just, he thought so highly of me, even though you know, maybe I couldn't see it myself. Because I had all these doubts, you know, dealing with the sight loss and everything, and that made a difference to me. Now, I can say from an advocacy perspective, two members of my family, I had to advocate on their behalf: my mother, and then later on, my son. And that helped me to navigate some of these systems that are in place in our culture that I felt needed to be challenged, and it's one of the reasons why I deeply believe that, you know, as people, as humans, we need to meet one another where we are. Where people are, and embrace them for who they are, and give people a chance.
Neva: Great. Thank you, Steph. You know, our world has changed a great deal in the last 13 months, and women particularly, have been affected by the pandemic in their roles in society. And I suspect that rolls over into women with disabilities in general, women with visual impairments. Janni, I'm sorry, Janni started the last question. Steph, let's start with you. What has changed in our world, in the pandemic world, that women are dealing with? Maybe you are, or maybe you know of someone, and how has it changed women's roles and how has vision loss impacted those changes?
Stephanae: That's a really good question. You know, at the beginning of the pandemic, I was actually sort of like in my element as an introvert, it was like heaven. It was like finally I felt like the rest of the world could sort of identify how an introvert sort of, you know, processes things and lives their life. But, as time went on, the isolation, I think, became a bit much. It was really heavy, and I struggled a great deal. One of the things I noticed, almost off the bat, was just access to goods and services was extremely difficult. It's difficult without a pandemic when you're blind or low vision, but with the added restrictions that were put in place, you know, things that I would normally do, like order online through, say, InstaCart or services like that, it became almost impossible, because everybody was doing it.
So, you know, unless one of my sons were here, or you know, I just, I had a really, really hard time just navigating the, everything that was happening, everything became a struggle for me. Mentally, I didn't do so well. (Chuckle) And it got to the point where I actually had to check out for a minute, and when I say check out, I mean I had to reach out, talk to a trusted friend, and they immediately told me, you need to come here.
I left my home to go out of state to get the care that I need to take care of myself. I've talked with other blind women who have had a variety of different experiences through the pandemic. Some have said, you know, they've had sort of similar type experiences, some a little different. Medical is hard during a pandemic. Proximity, you know, when you're out, when you do get out and you're like, in a store, or you know, like the doctor's office or whatever, and they've marked off things or whatever, well, when you can't see, you don't know where some of these, you know, guides are, like, they would put like tape on the floor, or you know, things to indicate 6 feet, you know, distance for social distancing, and those types of things were difficult. Sometimes people would invade my space, and that was frightening, because, you know, already I'm at a disadvantage, because I can't tell, really, what's happening, and there was just so much going on. It just felt like almost like an assault on the senses. I hope that answers the question.
Neva: I appreciate you sharing the struggles. How would the rest of you react to that question?
Janni: This is Janni. I wanted to say bravo to Steph for really highlighting something that I think is important to acknowledge, in this really unusual period that we're passing through, and that is that the pandemic has really just laid us all bare. It's, I think, critically important to acknowledge the devastating losses that we have incurred as family members, as women, as members of our community, as members of the global community. Those losses are exponentially increased for us, as members of the disability community, because so many in our community have lived in congregate settings which were ravaged by the pandemic.
But that doesn't belittle the lived experience of every single one of us. And so many of us have lost family members in the pandemic, including my own family. And so I think it's important to acknowledge the grief and the loss that goes along with that. And the helplessness that you describe, Steph, because as people with vision impairments, we can't immediately adjust to whatever this new normal is going to look like as we emerge from the pandemic. But the other side of that equation to me has been really, something that has given me tremendous hope in that, in addition to the bravery and the strength that we've seen demonstrated by the health care workers, first responders, and recently our government, in trying to help us through and get everyone vaccinated and on the other side of the pandemic, there is that remarkable kindness of strangers that we see at almost every turn.
Where people who didn't even know each other before are suddenly buying groceries for people, like my mom who's been isolated in her apartment in San Diego at age 90 for over a year. And that really is inspiring to me and I think we have an opportunity as we define the new normal, and we look at what the new world order is going to be, to really bring into play the two foundational elements that I think underlie both the suffrage movement and the disability rights movement, and that is that we have a respect for the dignity of every person around us, and a commitment to work inside our communities to be sure that we support each other so that we can get through this really challenging period in all of our lives.
Kathy:
This is Kathy, and one thing I want to say is, well, we finally proved to the nondisabled community that working remotely is possible. That is something that, you know, those of us who've been in the private sector and in government have been asking for as an accommodation, and you know, people say it doesn't work, well, it clearly, it will change the world of work. So that's one positive, and I don't need to echo what Janni said, but yeah, the disability community has been ravaged by COVID. I think for me, and I know people have a hard time believing this, but I really am an introvert,
So, I had a similar path as Steph. It was like, woo-hoo! I get to be home, you know, I can think, I can do my music, I can do my job, I don't have to get on BART. But also for me, I think for me, it forced me to reach out. It really forced me to reach out to people and to create communities, virtual communities, that I didn't really have before, and especially with other blind women. That has been a real change for me. I mean I've been friends with other blind women, but you know, really just sort of needing their input about how do you do this, how do you do that? Learning how to do things, I will tell you that my tech skills completely improved. So yes, it has impacted me quite a bit, and the rest of the community.
Neva: All right, I think that you all covered some very important points, and the respect and supporting one another is really a strong message that we have to take into recovery of the pandemic, as you mentioned, Janni. And as women who are blind return to work post-pandemic, so many of them have had to stay home because of closing of schools and caring for family members, etc. What will they need to do to succeed? What skills do they need to develop? What, what steps do they need to take? How can they best position themselves to succeed in the new world? Sam, will you share?
Sam: Yeah, sure. So perhaps I can share a bit about my lived experience in COVID, because I, pre-COVID, I was traveling a lot with my job. I love meeting people face to face. I would travel to the US or to Europe or Asia to meet people, in and outside of P&G business. I'd meet with them face to face, and I just found that the impact that you have when you meet people face to face, is so much more, richer than you have over the phone. But I do agree that you can get a lot of work done remotely and it's not a barrier.
So, for me the travel came to an end abruptly on the 15th of March last year, and I've learned to, you know, I've learned to work much more remotely. I've always worked remotely, but to work solely remotely has been a bit of a challenge for me, because I really miss meeting people and giving people hugs and you know, just getting to chill out with people. So, from a work perspective and from a social perspective, so now thinking about, you know, if I'm going back to work, you are going, it's natural and I think it's something to recognize that we all will feel uncomfortable. We will. It will be outside of our comfort zone. It might not feel natural to actually physically meet people in the office. You will get nervous, and I think it's really helpful for people to recognize that they're going to go through that experience and not to be shocked, but just actually to live through it.
I also think it's a very good time to lay out the boundaries, like what Kathy was saying earlier. We've proven through COVID, the upside has been that the world has recognized that you don't need to work face to face. You can work in a way that suits you, and I think that's the other thing, that when we get back to work, it will be really important to understand what works for you as the individual, and helping your company and management to recognize that, and give you that space. Because for me, it's like, we really need to work at what works for you, or for me. Like I always, even before COVID, I've never really followed any conventional rules when it comes to work and my work time. I make sure I give my work all my very best, and that might be to be, a bit more flexible in the way that I work.
You know, I'm also a mum of three kids and I want to make sure to give the best to my kids, as well. And, I think I'm in the best position to know how to manage work and family, and social and exercise, and whatever else there might be. And I think it's really important when we go back to work is to role model that behavior and make sure that people know that you are the right person who knows how to balance your work and your personal life.
Neva: Great. Thank you, Sam. Other reactions to what women who are blind or visually impaired will need to do post-pandemic to succeed in, not only the world of work, but life in general?
Janni: This is Janni, you know there's really a remarkable opportunity that that we're seeing emerging as we come through this period, I think both as women and as people with disabilities. We have demonstrated that there is a need for balance in our lives, for all of us, including women who work as mothers, and in this experience particularly women who have had to take on the burden of helping to educate their young children when they're at home with them. So, my hat is off to all of the parents who have taken on the extra role of educating their children from home and helping them keep up with their studies during the pandemic.
And, this is a particular problem for students with disabilities, because there has been a real gap that has been created for those students who have learned remotely from home, particularly those with vision impairments. And so it's a very important issue to be responding to. But, it's also a situation in which every parent, male or female, has had to take a really good look at the extra work that women have traditionally and always done in terms of running a household, getting the meals on the table, ensuring the children are cared for, making sure that all of those tasks which have really been unacknowledged through time, are taken care of at the same time as we make the adjustments to having all of us live and work from home. So, there's an opportunity now to carry that recognition forward and increased respect for what women take on when they work inside and outside the home.
And, I think in order to succeed in taking this message forward, really, we just need to do what we always need to do as women with disabilities; And that is, number one, take pride in who we are and what we accomplish, and when I say that, I mean that we should, in addition to doing so as women, we should out our identities as women with disabilities. It is time to declare ourselves members of the disability community, and be proud in their power and potential, and secondly, and very simply, we just need to really believe in ourselves, and carry that into all of our work that we do.
Neva: Thank you, Janni. Kathy or Steph? Anything to add?
Stephanae: I agree with everything that Janni said and I especially love the last part because I'll just go into, I had some thoughts on that, on how women could succeed. My sort of, not sort of, but definition of success personally, is adapting. So, adapting to any situation, regardless of what it is. As a single mom of three boys, you might imagine I had to adapt a lot. So, it takes some time. And when you're living with a disability, or an acquired disability, I think the bar is raised for adapting. But it can be done. I think doing continual self-assessments to hone in on your strengths, and to continue doing that, is something that needs to be done, and then, like Janni said, I'd like to say, yeah, be bold, be blind, embrace your blindness, and be beautiful. Don't be afraid to amplify your voice and be who you are, because there's great value in just being genuine and being authentic.
Neva: Great. Thank you. Kathy, we're going to start this question with you, and in a moment, we're going to open up to questions from the audience, which we've had some, but I want to invite anyone who has a question and hasn't put it in the chat, to do so. John Mackin, with AFB, is going to be fielding those questions to us, and I'll be pitching them to the different panelists. Kathy, where do you find the strength to do all you do for your immediate world and the world in general?
Kathy:
So, my passion is disability rights advocates, as well as reading, music, my friends, my family, and... I think that I feel a lot of hope now. It was rough in the last few years, but I feel incredible amount of hope with the changing of the administration, but also in the world that I am, you know, I really do my best to work across communities, so I try to work in the Latino community and the LGBTQ community and the disability community, because I don't want to deny or subjugate any of my identities, right? I spent a lot of time doing that and I'm really trying not to do that.
So weaving together a group of friends and colleagues and volunteer opportunities which involve my communities, really gives me the strength, and I know this is hard for folks to believe, but I am, I truly am an introvert, so I read a lot, I play music, I listen to music a lot. And really just, I don't know, I just, try to give respect, you know, my personal time. I've learned to develop boundaries over the years, I mean, I'm getting better at it, let me just put it that way. So, it's a work in progress, but you know, you can't say yes to everything, thank you, Warren Buffet, and so, you know, really trying to strike a balance, trying to do the work that I love, trying to be around the people that I care about.
I'm a life-long learner, so I'm always reading something, learning something, listening to a podcast, figuring out a new recipe in the Instant Pot which I just got and I'm totally loving it. I think my neighbors, I'm sort of experimenting with them, but so, I'm doing good, if you follow the recipe, you can pretty much not go wrong. But for me, learning, you know, just learning is a big part of what keeps me going, and again, you know, I'm often out of my comfort zone, I think we are as people with disabilities, we often are out of our comfort zone, and that's a good thing for me.
Neva: Thank you, Kathy.
Janni: This is Janni. You know, Kathy makes such an important point when she talks about the fact that being a person with a disability makes you a member of what we refer to as the biggest tent on earth, because it crosses absolutely every boundary that we can imagine, including race, age, gender, geography, type of disability, affiliation, and there's so much to be learn by engaging with and promoting the potential of each one of these very unique and powerful communities, and I also really want to acknowledge that right now, strength in my mind is very much associated with family, and we've heard that there are a number of moms among our panelists. I am proud to be a mother myself, of three grown children, and this year, I became a grandmother for the first time, one of the pandemic grandmothers which has been an interesting journey all in itself, but I don't think that we can overstate the importance of our finding strength in our families, our spouses, our children, our parents, and then enlarging that circle to the broader tent, which for Americans with disabilities is as we said, the biggest tent on earth.
Neva: Thank you, Janni. Steph or Sam, would you like to add to that?
Sam: Sure, I can go ahead. I think for, I can't even remember the question, actually, I was so engrossed in the answer.
Neva: Where do you find your strength?
Sam: Oh, my strength! OK, well, for me, I mostly, I just love everything that I do. You know I love working in the space of accessibility. I'm just so passionate about it, because I really, really believe that the world needs to be accessible for everybody including people with disabilities and it's not! And it's not fair and so I want to do everything that I can, and I really get motivated by the small wins that we're having, and I'm so energetic and passionate about making the world accessible, and growing the community, the people, like it's not just me and my workplace, there's a whole army now of people working on accessibility. People are beginning to get it, and I'm just so looking forward to seeing more and more accessible everything moving forward,
So, I get lot of energy from that, and I also love exercising and running and going to the gym and doing all that kind of stuff and I feel like when I do that, like I get the mental boost that I need, as well, and then, you know, I manage, I really work, my kids give me a lot of happiness, as well, you know, just to be able to bake a cake with them or to go to the park, like having a nice balance of things that I love doing, it really keeps me motivated and gives me a lot of strength to do what I want and then I choose not to do stuff that I don't like doing, so I'll just not do it. (laughing) So I use all my strength to do stuff that I love, so I hope that doesn't sound like too, too bad (laughing) but it's just like my philosophy: I'll not do it if I don't want to do it. Neva...you know, it sounds to me like the underlying, the common denominator that all of you have said is finding your passion, you know, and, working in those passions, because who has just one? And surrounding yourself with like-minded and supportive people. Whether it's family or--
Kathy:
And also, surrounding yourself with people that aren't so like-minded. I think that's, you know, that's what makes us stretch.
Sam: Yes, yes, you're absolutely right, Kathy.
Neva: I think those people are coming into our lives whether we want them to or not. (laughter)
Sam: Yes.
Neva: I'm hearing questions come through the chat and I turned my speech on my computer off so I'm not hearing them all so I can pay attention. But John Mackin is prepared to share some of the questions with us. John?
John: Thanks, Neva. Let's begin with, do the panelists have any specific tips on identifying and handling sexism and ableism when you've encountered it in the workplace or at conferences?
Neva: Sexism and ableism in the workplace and conferences, life in general, Janni, would you start us on that one and everyone else will be able to pitch in if they'd like.
Janni: Sure. So, let's acknowledge that this is a real issue. Both of those are real issues, sexism and ableism, and they are something that we need to change the dialogue on universally around the world, but very specifically also here in the United States. In terms of the way that I address these issues, I think there's really only one option, and that is to make a judgment about when and how you call it out.
In terms of sexism, we've had 100 years since the suffragette movement was able to succeed in securing the vote for women, but when you think about it, you can also say it this way: It's only 100 years. My expectation and my hope is that we would be much further along in terms of creating a dialogue of mutual respect as it involves gender issues. We know we have a lot of work to do with that, about that. In the United States and around the world. And the gender issue is very relevant as we approach a broader dialogue on equity, which has been raised in the recent months as we've weathered the pandemic, and the acts of violence that have sparked so much conversation around racial and other equity in our country and around the world. So my answer to that is to call it out.
When it comes to ableism, it's a very complex question. You know, there's no one-size-fits-all answer to the issues that revolve around discrimination based on disability. And there are people who have different levels of comfort and acceptance on that spectrum of disability that is so remarkably diverse. But I think it's important to find your place and make your mark. So, when people do things to me, like, for example, I'm standing in a grocery store, this was several years ago so I didn't have my lovely guide dog, Shiloh, but I had my cane out. And I knew there was a man standing to my right. I was trying to find the right kind of milk to take home, and I said to him, could you help me find some 2% milk from all of these choices? Because I couldn't determine by myself what was on the labels of the milk. And his response was, "Oh, honey, I have confidence in your ability to figure that out." Well, let's just address that. Wrong on every single level. But what we have to do is we have to continue to discuss it, to call it out, and to confront it, and do so in a way that enables us to change the conversation so instead of having to engage in those confrontations, we can all move from the same place, and that is that everyone is uniquely capable and there is nothing to be gained by exhibiting bias against people who may be just a little different than you are.
Sam: And Janni, just back to your milk point, I think the milk company should put tactile markings on their milk so that you know what's 2% or whatever, like full fat, low fat, skimmed, this is like, they need to make that accessible, as well, so that you don't have to get yourself into a situation to have that conversation with that individual in the first place. Does that make sense? We need to be able to do things independently.
Janni: This is Janni. I absolutely could not agree with you more, and we are fortunate that in the years since then, technology has really stepped into that breach and so now there are many apps that I can use when I navigate myself around the grocery store and I look forward to returning to a store sometime soon in order to do that, so that I can operate completely independently, and I believe that every one of us should be able to operate as independently as possible, but in those circumstances where it's not possible, I think it's on us to redefine the conversation. So that it's not "Oh, honey," and it's not-
Sam: Yeah (laughing).
Janni: ..."poor blind you," but it's how do we get this done together, and that's where we really make progress.
Sam: I think and that's where my personal passion is. Oh, sorry, too many of us talking at the same time. Go ahead.
Kathy:
I think another way to deal with this on a systemic level, and it's something that is hard to do on a systemic level, but at least the awareness-raising part and as Janni said, talk about it, is to ensure in companies that are trying to change their approach to diversity and equity and inclusion, to ensure that disability is part of the diversity agenda, and not put it on, somewhere on a special shelf or somewhere in its own category. It's got to be woven into the goals and the strategic plan around diversity.
And you know, whether that's conversations around mental illness or mental disabilities, or conversations around, you know, the how of disability, like, you know, a lot of questions that I got when I worked for Wells Fargo, wasn't necessarily about my competence, although I would have to say at the beginning I would have questioned my competence, but I got better, but it was really about the how. There's so much curiosity about how do you do this? How do you get this done? And I think as people are developing their DEI plans and strategies, you know, physical, digital, and cultural access have to be a part of those plans.
Stephanae: I agree and I'd also like to add that as employees, we don't have to wait for somebody's permission to instigate some of these changes, and to have conversations. When I was at Deloitte, my first year there, this wasn't a disability-related issue, but there was an event that was happening and it wasn't really wholly inclusive, and I reached out to the HR department and I sent a letter and I listed the pros and cons and what I felt about it, and it came back to me with sort of a thought of how to accomplish what I wanted to accomplish, and I was able to do that. And what was funny about that was I had some of these partners coming up to me after that and they were like, "Well, this is so great, how did you do it?" And I was like, I just simply wrote an email. So, you don't have to wait for permission to instigate change and I think isn't that really what advocacy is all about? And that's what I love about it, is you don't have to wait.
Neva: Great point. John, let's have another question.
John: OK, in the interest of time, I'm going to stack two separate questions, I think they're tangentially related enough. How have you managed workplace accommodations and technology skills in a corporate environment? At what point during the job search process should one divulge that they are visually impaired?
Kathy:
Well, I'll start. This is Kathy. I was recruited. So they knew I was visually impaired. You know, it's a process, and I think as more of us are part of the workforce, in large, well, the large and small companies, but you know, it's us learning the technology, which is always changing and so our skills are, in my mind, I'm always trying to catch up. But I really did, like the first year that I came to Wells-Fargo, I mean not only did I have to learn about the financial services industry, not only did I have to get accustomed to kind of working outside the disability bubble, and work in a giant corporation of 250,000 people. But I had to learn the software, the internal software, travel, how we do our budgets, and I had to learn my assistive technology as good as possible.
But also, I think the tech companies have stepped up. Like Zoom and Teams are much better than they ever were. They're not perfect, but they're much better than they ever were. So I have disclosed my whole life, pretty much that I'm a blind person. That has worked for me, but I don't think it's, I'm not saying it's a solution for everybody. Because I know that hiring managers, you know, in some situations are not very sympathetic and will see us more as a burden than a contributor. I think for people who are, have non-evident disabilities, that's a whole different conversation, but I tend to disclose right up front.
Neva: And I think you make a good point, Kathy, that it is very much an individual decision, and it is very much impacted by how apparent your vision loss is. John, do we have time for one more question?
John: Let's see what we can do. We do things differently as people with disabilities. How have you found this to foster innovation?
Kathy:
What a great question.
Sam: I'll take that one.
Neva: OK.
Sam: So, I took this role on as company accessibility leader and I had my own personal frustration for years where, you know, similar to the milk situation, I can't tell the difference between shampoo and conditioner, I can't tell the difference between day and night cream, and I don't know how many of you blind ladies have got like products in your drawers or bags that you don't know what they are?
Kathy:
Ha! Every day!
Sam: So, I took this as an opportunity to demonstrate to senior leaders in the company at Procter & Gamble to say, you know, you try finding the difference between shampoo and conditioner if you close your eyes or if you wear glasses that simulate sight loss and by doing that little exercise, they were able to recognize that, "Oh, God, yeah, it's not easy."
And then, you know, taking that to the next level, to say hey, guys, well, why don't we do this on our shampoo and conditioner bottles at P&G? Why don't we trial this to see whether this would make a difference, and that's why in 2018, we introduced these tactile stripes on the back of Herbal Essences shampoo bottles, S for stripes, S for shampoo. And then circles, little dots on the bottom of our conditioner bottles, C for circles, C for conditioner. So they're on every Herbal Essences shampoo and conditioner bottles, they're very tactile and they're very subtle, as well, so once you know they're there and you know what they're for, you will know the difference between shampoo and conditioner, even if they're in the same kind of bottle. And for me, it's really been an incredible journey to take the company through that, and then to take that insight into action and to implement it in our business process, and then to have it on the shelf in the supermarket.
It's been an incredible journey, but that's why you know, my vision is that we have these little subtle tactile marks on every bottle because for sighted people they can see 100% of the real estate on a bottle. They can see the writing, the colors, the pictures to recognize what that bottle is. We can't see any of that, and we have to rely on the shape of the bottle. But unfortunately, lots of different juices are in the same bottle shape. You know, ketchup and mayo are in the same bottle. So my vision is that we make everything... We create this universal language that we can just by touch, tell what the product is. So that's kind of my example that I wanted to share.
Neva:
That is innovative. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, ladies for being here, for sharing yourselves, your insights, your stories, with all of us. It's been my pleasure to moderate this panel, and thank you to the audience for joining us today for Women in Leadership: The Intersection Between Gender and Visual Impairment, AFB's Centennial Conversation. Thank you. Bye-bye.
