Katie: Welcome to the American Foundation for the Blind Centennial Conversation. My name is Katie Kelley. I'm a Caucasian woman, who identifies as she/her, with shoulder-length brown hair, based in Portland, Oregon. We are gathering today to learn from our panel experts about the current state of inclusion, intersectionality and the future of work for people who are deaf, blind, Deafblind or have low vision in the United States. According to the Global Accessibility Awareness Day website, from both a civil right and a business perspective, people with disabilities, which encompasses 1 billion people, are underserved by today's digital products.
Today we will unpack through our panel of experts how the recent global pandemic and the United States’ reckoning with racial and societal injustices have impacted people with disabilities in the workplace. We will have time for questions at the 45-minute mark when the audience is invited to ask questions of our panelists. Please add those questions to the chat and an AFB staffer will read those out for us.
As a reminder, alt H or command shift H for Mac users is a shortcut to access the chat window. Note that the session is being recorded and will be made available in the AFB100 archives at a later date. You can find all of our AFB100 events at AFB.org/100. We're so happy to have our ASL interpreters here and this session has live captioning. The link for the captions is in the chat. Without further ado, it is my great honor to introduce our panel speakers today. Sara Minkara, Founder and CEO of Sara Minkara LLC and board member of Empowerment Through Integration. Keri Gray, founder and CEO of the Keri Gray Group, DEI Educator & Consultant on Race & Disability. Jennison Asuncion, Co-Founder of Global Accessibility Awareness Day and Vice-chair of the GAAD Foundation. And Sachin Pavithran, Executive Director of the US Access Board. Welcome!
To begin our conversation today, I would like to quote an op-ed by AFB CEO Kirk Adams. This article was published last June. Quote: The past few months of the pandemic have leveled the playing field for many workers with disabilities and now we are at a cross roads. Organizations have the opportunity to rethink policies that may have erected unnecessary barriers for this enormous, motivated, yet overlooked talent pool. Can we take a leap forward in creating inclusive workplaces in the future? Unquote. Again, this was published a year ago. So, Sara and Keri, I would love for you to join the conversation and help us understand what you are experiencing today for people with disabilities in the US and being able to access inclusive workplaces. Keri, why don't you jump in first?
Keri: Sure. Well, good afternoon to everyone depending on what side of the world and the country that you're on. My name is Keri Gray, my pronouns are she/her. For a description, I'm a light-skinned Black woman who has these big old black glasses on, a mustard head wrap, and I’m wearing this white and black shirt. To get into your question, this is a very, not just interesting time, but a fundamental time in our country right now.
I think that, you know, there's a lot that can be said about what we experienced this past year. We're still experiencing it, we're still processing it. But we ultimately know that we're kind of getting into a point of transition. Transitioning the workplace. Some of the folks are considering, should we be back in the office? Should we stay remote? Should we be hybrid? And people are considering their policies and practices. And that definitely has to do with everything that we experience in the midst of a global pandemic. But one of the things that I want to bring into this space is that it also has to do with this sense of social justice. The atmosphere that is in the air right now around how we're building inclusive workplaces.
As I mentioned earlier, I identify as a Black woman with disabilities. And what we're seeing about the future of accessibility in the workplace is that it has to be grounded in racial equity. So, we're looking at the intersections of how are we ensuring that our workplaces are accessible for people with disabilities, for all types of folks that have been experiencing the impact of the pandemic. But we also know that we were experiencing the historic uprising of the Black Lives Matter movement. And that had our country and companies and organizations, everyone thinking about how are we treating people? How are we leaving space for folks to have this sense of belonging so that we can productively move forward collectively?
Right now is a prime time and it's a real opportunity. Thankfully some folks have been about this work, but it's a real opportunity for us to consider, what are our priorities when it comes to constructing how we are building our workplaces? Particularly since we are about to be in a season of transition. Or we are currently in a season of transition. So, it has us considering representation. It has us considering the physical infrastructure of our buildings. It has us considering transportation to and from work to a deeper extent. And all of the implications that are associated with work because you are a person with a disability who was also a person of color.
The impact of being a Black and brown person in the United States is significant. And that is a critical time for us to be wrestling with that reality and what changes need to occur so that we are genuinely producing—we are genuinely gathering great talent and we're producing outcomes that are inclusive of all of our people and all of our community. I will open it up by saying, contextualizing that now is the season. Now is the time. We cannot ignore the fact this is the prime opportunity for us to consider the implications of everything that has happened this past year. And a big piece of that is the intersectional practices of what we are developing that is inclusive of Black and brown people with disabilities. So, thank you for that question.
Katie: Incredible, Keri. Thank you so much. We knew you were the right person to set the table for this very broad, far-reaching conversation. Thank you so, so much. Sara, would love to hear from you as well on the large table-setting of today's conversation. Thank you.
Sara: Definitely. Hello, everyone, and t hank you so much for having me here. My name is Sara. My pronouns are she and her. I'm wearing a black blazer, black and white striped shirt, a white head scarf with a black under-piece, and I have a virtual background that has my company logo. So, yes, you know, COVID, the pandemic has, you know, really been an opportunity of pause and reflection when it comes to disability.
For many, many generations and many years, people with disabilities have been asking for certain accommodations that now the majority of people have because of the situation. Flexible work hours, flexible working from home, et cetera, et cetera. But it was never really part of the conversation because it was seen as an extra accommodation. The pandemic hit and it really made everyone rethink and restructure how they're looking at their work and beyond. But I think the pandemic has kind of really shed light on... that there's still gaps of exclusion when it comes to people with a disability, when it comes to the work setting.
And it goes beyond just the surface level of exclusion. There's a systemic level of exclusion and marginalization to people with a disability that the narrative, until now, is at best a human rights narrative. People with disabilities want to come to the work setting. Most of the time it's seen as a burden when they’re asking for accommodation, they’re seen as an add-on to the system. A t best, it's seen as a human rights aspect. It's the right thing to do. I think we really still need to get to the point where it's a value-based perspective . Employers, companies, systems saying I want to include people with disabilities because they have value to bring forward. It's a benefit to all of us. The inclusion of all is a value for all.
And I think if we never get to that point, we're still gonna see points of exclusion and marginalization across the board. And we still see it. We still see it with how we are moving forward with solutions during and post-pandemic. A really great example is when Massachusetts brought forward the vaccination distribution in the beginning, we were not doing a good job with even taking into consideration people with disabilities and their kind of access to it, right? Again and again and again, people with disabilities are still kind of part of the add- on to the system.
And I always talk about inclusion. It's not enough for people to be in the room. It's not enough for people to have a seat at the table. Really need to look at inclusion from a value perspective and authentic lens perspective. Is everyone really able to bring their full self forward? People with disabilities are not just disabled. They could be women. They have, you know, race. There's so many different identities we embody—and with those different identities, we embody our own unique experience and journey. And I think that in order for us to really start addressing this from the get-go, we need to have systems say, “I want to. I want to include employees with disabilities. I see the value.” And then from then on, not making assumptions of what they need or what their journey is. It's actually understanding their journey. Understanding what their experience is. Whether it's doing that through journey mapping or other types of kind of, you know, tools and solutions.
And then from there on, we actually—we start building out solutions that is inclusive of all. I think we just don't even think about disability. I was talking one time to this organization at Stanford, and they were doing a hackathon during the pandemic to come up with certain solutions. And I was like, are you thinking about the disability perspective? They were like, no. You know? We're still at that point. So, I think, again, we do it in a way that it's not extra. It's not, this is just the right thing to do. I think there's a value for everyone in doing so.
So, that's where I would kind of—yeah.
Katie: Incredible. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Sara. I'm going to move along to the next topic, so we bring Sachin and Jennison into the conversation. But if there's any follow-up questions about Keri and Sara's comments, please populate them into the chat. Sachin, bringing you into the conversation. Roughly 7 in 10 blind Americans are not employed today. The reasons are often multi-layered, stemming from bias, misperceptions about accommodations, inaccessible workplaces, and lack of transportation. Sachin, you are preparing to relocate from Utah to Washington, D.C. to serve in an incredibly prestigious role as the executive director of the US Access Board. For those of you who are not familiar with this board, it's the leading source on accessible design in the nation and the world. It developed standards for buildings, sidewalks, transit vehicles, telecommunications equipment, medical diagnostic equipment, and information technology. So, Sachin, as we begin to see part of the country, I'm slower on the West Coast than many of you out on the East Coast as far as the return to work and experimentation with hybrid work policies, what are you seeing as top priorities in the federal workplace for people who are blind or visually impaired, please? Welcome, Sachin.
Sachin: Thank you, Kelly. My name is Sachin Pavithran. And my pronouns are he/him/his. As an image description, I'm a dark-skinned male of Southeast Asian descent. I'm wearing a light-blue button-up shirt in my home office with a blurred background. So, the conversation around accessible workspace and the accessibility of technology and the role of the federal government and all the different sectors is a—obviously a pretty big topic right now. At the US Access Board, accessibility is something that we define when we set standards and when we work on regulations. That's, you know, without defining what accessibility is, we believe we can't move forward when we write standards.
Now, the federal government is the largest employer out there. Now, there's not one set criteria or way that the federal government is going to play out. Every department and every agency within the department is going to have different approaches to this. But when the pandemic hit last year, you know, we often joke among the community that the federal government is probably the slowest to adapt. But the reality was the federal government really adapted pretty quickly when it comes to how to remote—how to telework and work remotely.
Now, since the pandemic is hopefully coming to the end, the dialogue has shifted. What is the federal workspace going to look like in the future for everyone? Not just for people with disabilities, but for everyone? With that said, often when you need—if you are looking for federal employment, your options are pretty limited because most federal employment exists in big cities. You know, DC and Virginia, DMV being the pretty big federal spaces. And if you wanted other opportunities with the federal [government], it was limited. And when you are disabled, it makes it even more difficult because accessibility, transportation, all the other barriers that we all know that exist makes it more complicated. But that conversation is shifting now in the federal government.
Now, like I said earlier, this is going to be different within each department. But the communication has changed. [Inaudible] management and other entities who have engaged other departments and agencies have really bought into really embracing what remote work looks like. What telework looks like. Work—is it necessary for people to be in a federal building to perform their work? What does that mean for people with disabilities? Well, first of all, they don't need to leave their support systems that they have within their local communities that they live in. Whether it's a rural community, whether it's, you know, any part of the country that they live in.
The dialogue has been, we're losing good possible workforce if we don't change our paradigm on what and how we recruit people. Not just the new members to the workforce, but also existing workforce. Because opportunities are changing, and people don't want to go back to what it was.
So, with that, I think people with disabilities are gonna have a better chance, especially blind and low vision people, to apply for jobs in the federal government because of this new mindset that the federal government is rolling out where you don't have to relocate to DC. You don't have to relocate to Maryland or Virginia, or any of the big cities and leave your support system that you have with your families and other people in the community, which is pretty critical for the disability community, t o have those support systems. A lot of times we don't talk about that component. You know, transportation is a huge barrier. But leaving your support system is also another big barrier to move across the country.
I'm fortunate enough to do that and be able to function in the DC area. But it is good to know that there are other opportunities that are popping up. But we also need to be mindful when we're advocating for these remote work and telework, what that really means for people with disabilities. I know it's a huge value added for people with disabilities. But we all know one—one way of doing business does not fit everyone's personal needs. There are people with disabilities who would rather go into the office, who would rather be in the big city area and be in that federal space.
So, when we advocate for telework, when we advocate for remote work, let's be mindful that that's not everyone's idea of what they want personally. And decades of work has been gone into this for creating accessible workspaces. We don't want all that to disappear. So, when we have dialogues, when we have conversations about accessible workspaces in federal government or any other sectors, public or private sectors, we need to be mindful, one size doesn't fit all. We need to be advocating for all accessible workspaces. Whether it's remote or in-person. And we don't want to forget best practices that we learned even in in-person workspaces. Because that's something that has been put into play in decades of work. And the lessons we learned in the last year can be accessible to more accessible virtual work spaces. The technology space is significantly improved in the last year. In fact, we probably...you have seen a lot of growth because of the demand in virtual spaces. So, the accessibility conversation has a long way to go. But I'm excited to see the opportunity that's going to pop up in the federal workspace for people with disabilities.
Katie: Incredible. Thank you so, so much, Sachin. What I'm hearing from the three of you is a sense of momentum, a sense of hope. A paradigm shift in typical, you know, closed-mindedness to the concept of virtual workforce. And I really appreciate what you just said, Sachin, is one size does not fit all. And so, giving people the power of choice to determine where they can do and how they can do their best work. So, thank you.
So, appreciate you also bringing up the technology piece which is a big part of this conversation. So, it's time to bring in Jennison. Jennison, you have been a trailblazer in this field starting with the accessibility camps you began. Did a lot of research, there's a lot of history about you out there. You joined forces in 2011 with Joe Devon and created the Global Accessibility Awareness Day, which now takes place on the third Thursday of May. A single day to think about, learn about, and experience global accessibility.
So, Jennison, how do we ensure that new workplace technologies are accessible and inclusive? And I've got a couple more questions for you, but please, welcome.
Jennison: Thank you. Hello everyone from my dining room/remote office. I identify as he/him. I'm a Filipino. And so, I have black hair and brown eyes. I'm wearing a white shirt. I want to talk about this from two perspectives: from the procurement side of the house as well as from the in-house development of tools that employees would be using. Talking first from the procurement side of things, just in the interest of full disclosure, in a previous life I built the procurement process at one of Canada's largest banks. So, this is the accessibility procurement process. So, I have a lot to say on that, but I'm going to keep myself in bounds here so we have time for everything. I think the most important thing when you're purchasing is to probe. Ask questions.
The more you ask questions to suppliers, the more that they understand that you are actually committed to accessibility. This isn't a check box exercise. So, you might ask for a voluntary product accessibility template or a VPAT, some people might know. But that should be viewed as just one piece of things, of the data that you're going to be asking for. You need to ask all of your vendors, if you're going to be doing an RFP, things like, do they have their own internal accessibility capability? What does that look like? How does that vendor test for accessibility?
Ask for customer references. Just like you would for any other aspect of that product or feature. Ask them—asking for customer references is important, because then you can actually speak to them to say, so how accessible was the product really? Because when you first start talking to a vendor, you're typically talking to a salesperson. And the sales people will let you hear everything you want. When you are evaluating contending products through an RFP or an RFI, you need to make accessibility one of the factors there.
And from a strategic perspective, you need to look at building accessibility into the entire procurement process. And then, of course, the most important thing is the contract. And you need—if there is no language around accessibility in the contract, then you are—you are basically going to be going on their goodwill. So, there needs to be language in the contract talking specifically about how that vendor will address themselves to bugs. Either known bugs that they're aware of, or bugs that come up as a result of you potentially using the product and your employees have—have come across a problem.
My big piece of advice in this area is similar to security vulnerabilities or anything else, you as a company should not be paying for a supplier to close accessibility bugs. I have always and in my—I have been doing this since 2006—but when I was building the procurement process, I made sure people understood that accessibility bugs are just like any other technical bug. And so, why should I as the person purchasing your tool have to pay you to fix bugs that you created? So, that's the kind of—that's the kind of position and posturing with that. Just a few words on stuff that is developed in-house. That's a little bit easier. I'm not saying it's gonna be like an—like everything's gonna work out necessarily immediately. But because if you're building it internally, you own the destiny of that product or that app . Whatever you're building.
So, in that situation, you need to make sure that accessibility is built in from the beginning. And that starts at user requirements all the way to the pre-launch checklist. The other thing that's kind of important, it kind of—it makes sense, but it's sometimes not done, is someone within that project needs to be held accountable as owner of accessibility. Because if you don't have that and you don't have mechanisms for tracking accessibility and what's happening within the project, it's more than likely gonna be forgotten about. So, if you are in a situation where you're building a product and you do not have someone who is tasked to own accessibility from the beginning to the end, that becomes problematic. Like I said, because—because of that—of it potentially getting lost.
The only other thing I'll talk about quickly is about testing. So, of course, you're gonna want to test with people with disabilities. But don't depend on your—just because you have employees with disabilities at your company, they're not your in-house QA. They're there to work. They've got a 9 to 5 job. You need to, if you really care about accessibility and you've built your own product internally, you're gonna hire a QA team with people with disabilities. Or you're gonna pay for people with disabilities to test the product. Again, it's not the employees’ inside responsibility to be your testers. Similarly, you don't become the QA tester for an external vender company, either. That's their responsibility.
And I'll stop there. Because I could go on and on.
Katie: Oh, my gosh. You're incredible, Jennison. Thank you. So, before I get to one of my last questions, I would love to just kind of go back even to Keri and Sara and just kind of reflect on everything the four of you have just shared. What I'm hearing from it really takes—one person or a couple people within an organization can be the real difference makers. It's the people who are going to be the ones who determine the commitment in an organization to do all of this evaluation and discernment and prioritization and raising the flag to say this is important to us. And any comment or reflection on what that looks like? Keri, I know you as a consultant, and Sara too, when you go into organizations, can it just be one person that you partner with in an organization that can really, you know, start the fire towards, you know, more openness and more progressiveness? You know, to inclusion and intersectionality? What does it really take to get the groundswell in an organization for all of this great work?
Keri: Well, this is Keri. I will definitely say we need everybody. Right? Everybody has to play their part, their position, in order for us to see the type of momentum, the type of outcomes, and impact that we genuinely need and deserve in the workplace. However, what I will say is having those key points of contact is critical. What tends to—what we're seeing right now is that a lot of companies and organizations are making very public statements about their commitment to racial and disability equity. Which is important.
And so, they're naming their expectations of how are we going to invest through advancement programs? How are we going to invest through our hiring practices? How are we going to contribute to tons of different groups and suppliers that are doing incredible things? And so, there's this like action steps that are being named from leadership. And then what happens is that there's key folks that are saying, all right. Let's figure out the how. Let's figure out who we need to be working with to ensure that we're actually executing on what we mean when we talk about inclusion, accessibility, and equity. So, having those key points of contacts are critical, but in actuality, it takes community. It takes all different types of people from all levels to say, it doesn't matter what your position is, it doesn't matter how high you are in the company and organization. Our united attitudes, our united values, our united, you know, the types of things that we put into our programs and our initiatives and our designs, that's what's really gonna get us to this outcome of what we're looking for. So, I think I would encourage folks to say that there has been underinvestment in the disability community. There has been underinvestment in Black and brown people with disabilities. But that can change.
And that happens when we collectively say, what can I do? What can I give to be a part of this—this—it's not a moment. But this movement that we're building to ensure that we're actually in outcomes that we need. I would be on the lookout for who is already in—who is in it, right? Who is leading things? W ho is running programs and committees and all types of different things and how can you join them in that effort? Because it is about our—it's about everybody. It's about everybody being in to ensure that we get that inclusion.
Katie: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that, Keri, because I imagine there's many people on the call today who want to be part of this solution. But maybe aren't sure where to begin. And so, what I'm hearing from you is look for the people who are leading the charge, even speaking up in meetings and voicing a concern about those who aren't being taken into consideration. Whether it's consumers, you know, whether it's customers. Whether it's people inside the organization. And just show up. And say, how can I help? So, thank you. Sara, I want to let you come back in and share your point of view.
Sara: I mean, definitely. I want to echo a lot of what Keri said. And I think that, you know, a lot of us—it needs a bottom-up approach and a top-down approach, right? It's as Keri said, it is a community effort. It's not enough for us just to be on the grassroot level kind of really bringing forward that narrative. You do want that narrative then institutionalized into policies. But it's not enough for leaders just to bring forward policies and say, Okay, look, we have these policies for inclusion, et cetera. And then people are the ones that implement the policy. So, if people are not embodied and get trained and really believe in these policies, they're never going to be implemented in the right way. So I think that it needs kind of from both fronts.
And also, what ends up happening in a lot of different spaces , disability becomes siloed. There's an ERG for disability and there we go. We put all the problems on them. And we think that by having an ERG, we checked off the box. We are good. We are being inclusive. And there we go. Disability needs to be more mainstream throughout every single conversation, every single department, every single kind of entity. Even a cross all kinds of ERGs, et cetera. It needs to be seen across all aspects within the company. Not just from the policy side, from the program delivery side, from the implementation side, from all kinds of aspects. But I would say sometimes, OK, we enter a company, and we don't know where to start. And I think what Keri was saying is that we all have the power within us to empower someone else.
We all have the power to kind of be part of the solution, right? We can see within our own ecosystem and our own team and our own space whether, you know, there's a way to kind of make sure everyone—every single person's voice is heard and they are part of kind of that—the, you know, the space fully. And I always say the really important part to kind of bring forward, and something that was said earlier is, you know, curiosity through the lens of compassion, don't make any assumption of what that person needs to be fully included. Really, ask and have that space for them to bring forward their own experience and journey. I think believing that all of us have the power within us to make a difference in the space that we're in to create an empowerment space for others, I think that allows us to really bring things forward. So, yeah.
Katie: Incredible. Ladies, wow. Thank you. S o, you already moved into what was gonna be my final question. So, I'm gonna bring now Sachin and Jennison in. Which was: if you were to put your career coach hat on, so many listeners, not only do we have organizations here listening and wanting to be inspired and getting that inspiration already. We're checking those boxes, it's happening. What about individuals who are on this call and want to be you, Keri? They want to be you, Sachin, they want to be you, Jennison, and you, Sara. They are so inspired by what you are doing in this world, in this work. What is your career advice? What was the big difference maker for you in getting to where you are in your career? Jennison, I'll lob to you, my friend, first.
Jennison: Sure. I grew up in a time when I was in high school, elementary, when there were certain perceptions of people who are blind were prevalent. And, you know, there were certain job areas where I was told, oh, well, you're blind. You know, you would be best to do X, Y, and Z career. And as a teenager, I was certainly like, you're in a moldable state. So, you're hearing that. And then on top of that, being an immigrant, there were also perceptions as to—or expectations as to what I needed to be and do. So, I say all of that looking back on it now to say, you need to, as best as you can, and I know it's so easy for me to say it. It took a while for me to get through it—I had to go through my own journey. But you need to throw away other people's ideas of what you should be doing and really go with where your heart and your passion is. And again, I know t hat's so easy to say. But I did a lot of different careers before I got to where I am now. And I look back and I value all the experience I have. But ultimately where I am now, working in the accessibility space since 2006, I'm the happiest now that I have ever been in my career. But I know that I wouldn't have got here without having had those other experiences.
So, again, my big advice is, don't listen to what other people are saying. Even though they might be well-meaning professionals who might think that they know what you should be doing. But go with your passion. Because that's ultimately, when you wake up in the morning, you're the one—you’re gonna be the one who is going to have to do that thing that we call work. And that takes up a lot of your week. So, you need to be—you need to love it, in order to really prevail in it and do all that kind of good stuff.
Katie: Incredible, Jennison. And you've got some major fandom going in chat. Bravo. Thank you. Sachin, what about you? What's your career advice for our listeners who want to be Sachin when they grow up?
Sachin: I love what Jennison said. You know? Don't just let people put you in a box where this is—you're a blind person. This is what—these are the list of things you should be doing. I think it's important to really step back and, you know, be mindful of who you are as a person. And explore what you can do as a person. It's good to have—it's good to get advices. But don't let those advices drive what you do in the future. In a mentorship, role models all played a pretty big role in my life. As an immigrant, I didn't really know what kind of systems were available in this country. I wasn't really sure what opportunities I could pursue.
But so, but having those role models really did help me. Now, I didn't prescribe to everything they said. I took that and I ran with it. But one thing that really helped me is the whole idea of networking. Building relations and networking really made a huge difference in who I am and where I am right now.
Now, people say, well, if you're going to be a networker, you need to be an extrovert. And I'm not an extrovert. I can perform as an extrovert when the need needs to be. But I'm usually fairly quiet and reserved in many settings, in social settings. But in a work setting, I can put that show on as far as networking because I see the value. I see how it helps me. I have seen how it has helped me get me from where I was to where I am right now. So, 100% what Jennison said. But also, really embrace the value of building relations. You just don't know what that one relationship is going to help you in the next step in your career. Really expand on getting to know people. But don't do it just because you are being—you're trying to get something out of it. Be genuine when you're doing this networking.
It really—you can learn from professionals in the space. But you also can advance in your careers by networking.
Katie: Incredible. Thank you.
Jennison: Can I just say plus 1,000 to what Sachin just said? I wouldn't be where I am without networking either and that's such an important thing.
Katie: Absolutely. Thank you so much. And yeah: it's a choice to show up, right? It's a choice for a lot of people to be here in their lunch hour or their afternoon hour. Just showing up and listening to these four incredible people today. Kudos to all of you in the audience. Keri, last question from me, we're going to transition to John Mackin at the 45-minute mark. There’s amazing questions for him to field to all of you. But would love to know, Sara and Keri, a couple minutes from you both on what's been the real difference maker for you professionally that's gotten you to where you are today, please.
Keri: So, this is Keri. And I really love this question because I run so many programs for, you know, young professionals. And I remember what it's like to be this like Black disabled girl from the south side of Long View, Texas. And I'm stepping into these workplaces and I'm just like, do I belong here? Is this like, i s this me? Like all of these questions start going through your mind of, like, I just don't know. And that was just exposure, right? Just like trying to figure out what this world even looks like. And how I can be a part of it. One of the biggest things I want to encourage people is to be courageous about your career. Be ambitious about it. There's been so many times in my life where I had no idea where I was going. No idea where I would end up. Like just trying things. Like try as many opportunities as possible. Join committees. Get involved in the community. Meet people. All of that makes a big difference in terms of the clarity of who you are, what you can give, and where you're going with your life.
I definitely want to co-sign the statements that were made earlier about networking. Over 80% of jobs are gained due to social capital. That means you know somebody. Somebody recommended you. Somebody forwarded the job opportunity to you. It is the people that you involve in your network that help you to build the opportunities out. So, I just want to co-sign that and say, be courageous. Be ambitious. Try as many things as possible. And network, for sure.
Katie: Beautiful. You are amazing. Thank you, Keri. And Sara, what are your final thoughts on this matter?
Sara: Yeah, everyone—what everyone said is spot on. It's networking. Not allowing society's perception to really impact your own perception of what you want to do in life. And ambition. So, for me, I actually started my first venture when I was in college in the department of integration that actually focused on the empowerment of blind and visually impaired youth and the inclusion of them in developing countries. And that was—I was able to kind of start the organization when I was young because I was able to take risk. When you're young, you take risks, right? And I remember going home and I told my parents, I'm no longer gonna pursue—you know, I was studying math and economics. I was like, I'm no longer going to pursue that Ph.D., I'm going to start a nonprofit. And it was like, w hat? You're going to start a nonprofit organization? But when you're young, you take risks. You—it's so important for us to take a step back, create that moment of pause and reflection, and really turn our own experiences into purpose with impact. Because I believe that every single one of us in this world has something beautiful to contribute in society.
And for me, starting ATI was from my own experience of realizing that I had the privilege of being empowered by my parents. But there are so many blind and visually impaired kids around the world that are marginalized because of the narratives in society and they're not able to tap into their potential. So t hat in itself, being able to take that risk and being able to be supported by my friends and family, I was able to kind of start that first venture. But one last kind of comment I wanted to make, and this is a—this is advice from a professor I had.
You know, we all come with isms. I'm a blind Muslim woman. I come into a room, I face so many different narratives, you know, whether it’s towards ableism, Islamophobia, or sexism, et cetera. When you enter a room and you are embodying those isms, you start creating that vicious cycle of marginalization in some ways. But when you enter a room and you’re embracing all of who you are and you say I'm proud of who I am, proud of my disabilities, part of who I am. I belong here and I have something valid to contribute to the space. You start creating a powerful narrative of value.
And I think for any of us, we are always dealing with these isms. I think recognizing how can we move forward and really say, I belong here and I'm gonna be contributing. And bringing that forward to your own work and your own purpose and what you want to do in this world is really important.
Katie: I can't tell you how inspired I am by all of your human spirits. Thank you so much for allowing me to enter this space and amplify and elevate all four of your amazing lives and professions. I'm going to transition now to the AFB PR leader, John Mackin, to field the final 15 minutes of questions. John?
John: Thank you, Katie, and big thank yous to all of the panelists. We have a lot of good questions here. Let's jump right in. Hello, is there a chance—oh, sorry. I just lost it. Hello, is there a chance that there will be flatter and more learning organizations due to the pandemic? I am interested in women and employment and the pay gaps that have existed for women with disabilities. How do we get stereotypes of employers to lessen, which I'm looking at in my doctoral program? Thank you. I think essentially, how do we reduce pay gaps and will flatter learning organizations help to bridge this gap?
Keri: So, this is Keri. I'll hop in for a first stab at that. And basically—sorry. Sorry about that. The first thing that I want to mention—oh, I'm having some tech issues. So sorry. But the first thing that I want to mention is that pay gaps are real. One of the things that we see is if I think about the experiences of Black women, Black disabled women, we see that 80% of Black families, Black women are the breadwinners. However, they are one of the lowest paying demographics in our country.
That is very—there's a lot of implications behind that and what that means for our community and what that means for the generations of our families to come. The issue that we're seeing is twofold. One, we need more data from companies that are coming out and documenting the disparities that are happening within their companies. Two, we need public accountability to state that if you are experiencing these pay gaps, then that means that there's something that needs to be adjusted. And very quickly to ensure that people with disabilities, people of color, are being paid at a proper and equitable way. That means activism at the intersection of organization—the organizational policies. The other thing that we're seeing is there needs to be more investment in the financial literacy of our communities. Oftentimes we see that people with disabilities, Black and brown people with disabilities, are not taught what it means to negotiate. Are not taught what it means to understand what your value is and to—that's not a feeling, but that's like a very mathematical, factual situation. So, there needs to be investment both in our people and our community to understand how much they are supposed to be earning, what their value is in the workplace and that needs to be matched with what companies are offering to our individuals and that accountability has to be built into our—into our processes moving forward.
So, there's a lot of work definitely to be done there. I agree that programs are helpful with that. But accountability is, I would say, is one of the biggest things that we need.
Sara: Can I just add on to that, as well? I'm not an expert in this as much as others are. But from own kind of personal experience and also one of the classes that we took in grad school was negotiations for us. Specifically for women. Right? And in general there's—as Keri said, there is a pay gap. Especially for women with disabilities, et cetera. And there's negotiation classes around, how do we get women to make sure that when they get a job offer, they're trained to ask for better—to negotiate for a better salary. Because usually women don't do that as much as men. There's a lot of aspects around this. And I think there aren't enough curriculum content out there and focus in terms of women with disabilities. Because let's be real, some women with disabilities might feel like, oh, my god, I'm getting an accommodation. Okay. I'm so grateful I have a job and I have the accommodation. I'm not gonna ask for more, right? And there's that sense of I'm already asking for more. So, I think one of the aspects, one of the sides of the complex equation is how do we get women with disabilities to say, you're worth it? You're worth it and accommodations are not an extra. And that you should be asking for what your worth is.
John: Thank you so much, Keri and Sara. If no one else has an answer, I'll jump into the next question. Okay. How do you address so-called diversity initiatives in businesses that do not include and indeed exclude people with disabilities? Most EDI activities are exclusive of people who are Deaf or disabled.
Sachin: This is Sachin, I'll jump in real quick. So, this is an ongoing problem. When we have a conversation around diversity, equity, and inclusion, often disability is not included in that conversation. And this happens in every sector. Higher education, federal, private—no matter which sector you work for. People with disabilities are part of the diverse population that we live in, t he diverse community that we live in. Companies and organizations really need to understand the intersection of all the underlying factors that we, people with disabilities, I'm a blind person but I'm not just a blind person. I'm a blind person who is an immigrant, a person of color. There's all these different aspects. These areas that I bring to the table and can add to the conversation. So, organizations when they start talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, since that is a topic that's being discussed broadly in all these different entities, we need to really understand which part of the community has been left out. Which we all know, disability community is the one that's often left out. So, I strongly encourage that, you know, organizations seriously take into consideration, you know, really understand the disability community as what, you know, what are the factors that they bring to the table and what they can add to the conversation?
Jennison: I'll just add something really quickly. I'm definitely in agreement with what Sachin said. But I think we as people with disabilities also play a part. And, you know, the comment was brought up about the employee resource groups. That there's ones that are specifically for people—for people with disabilities and their allies. But those of us with disabilities and impairments also need to be part of those other employee resource groups or other support systems to bring that point home, exactly. So, if there is, you know, if you do share an affinity with another employee resource group or other such support group in a workplace, consider just joining that, as well. Because without us being in those other affinity groups and such, the issue just might get, you know, acknowledged but not really talked about. We need to actually show up, as the term is always being used these days. We need to show up in those other groups too to say, hey. I might happen to have a disability or impairment. But hey, I'm also an immigrant or an Asian American or whatnot.
So, we have a role to play. We as people with disabilities have a role to play, as well.
Sara: And then I want to add on to all of this. I mean, this is amazing. And one other thing as well in the diversity and inclusion world, even if they do have a disability kind of sector ERG or whatever it is, disability is so diverse, right? And you have visible and invisible disability. And I think one of the conversations that's always missing is... When we do a lot of our trainings, we actually have a lot of people come up and say I have an invisible disability, I’m not comfortable talking about this or bringing this forward because of the stigma. When you have an invisible disability, you have kind of...it’s tough in a sense. You have to choose when to disclose, and how to disclose, and whether you want to disclose or not, and all this kind of stuff. It's not discussed and it's not part of a lot of these conversations, mental health and there are other kinds of invisible disabilities. It’s almost like, companies, usually, again they use it a check. OK, great! We have a disability ERG. Great! They have token employees with disabilities sometimes. But we're diverse. So many different types of disability and there's invisible, not just visible disabilities. So there's a lot of complexities to how companies are not...are addressing disability and inclusion or are not addressing disability and inclusion.
Keri: And this is Keri. Just one thing I’ll add to that, we could really use everyone in the audience and even more people's help with exposure. Right? Because to the last point that was just made is that there is so much stigma when it comes to the disability identity that still exists. Just the word "disability" in a lot of places is really hard to receive. And we need people's support to apply that pressure and let people know that our existence is here, it is valuable, and it has to be a part of the momentum of DEI overall. So our collective efforts in terms of getting that exposure, in terms of de-stigmatizing our community is incredibly necessary. And also the other thing that I will add is that there's a lot of DEI departments that are holding, like, all of the diverse demographics. You'll have representatives within an organization or a company, they're holding the LGBTQ portfolio, they're holding the certain racial and ethnic groups portfolio, they're holding the disability community portfolio.
And not only is that a lot to hold, but they end up prioritizing who they can actually access. And so, it—that is something that we need to address. But also, it's a situation where, how do we jump into the faces of folks and say, you got to put us at the plate. You have to make sure we are included, because we are one fifth of the population, at least in the United States. And everything we're doing is intersected in all of your portfolios collectively. So I agree with the question and everything that folks have said, and I want to say that we really need to increase the exposure of our community.
John: Thank you all, this is great. We're rapidly running out of time so I’m going to jump into as many questions as we can in our final remaining moments. What's number one on your wish list for making workplaces accessible? What's your moonshot wish?
Sara: I mean, I think for me, this is a very big answer. But just to give it short: I don't want companies to be looking at disability inclusion from a technical lens. I want them to be looking at it from an adaptive lens. How do you really dig into the core aspect of why are we not including people with disability fully and understand the core aspects of the narrative and how do we shift that holistically? If we look at it, the problem from a technical lens, were going to approach it with technical solutions, which will never have a sustainable solution for disability inclusion.
Jennison: I will just say, something that's being talked about broadly, just, forget disability or not. But moonshot would be for companies to really embrace the reality of hybrid and/or fully remote work. Particularly for people with disabilities for the reasons we've talked about. One thing we haven't really talked about is transportation. But that is really an issue that does pose a barrier for many people with different disabilities or impairments. By embracing hybrid or fully remote, we can deal with that issue in particular.
Keri: This is Keri. That's a tough one because I have a list. [laughs] But what I will say is the future of disability rights is intersectional. And so, I say that because I think it's very important for us to center the experiences of Black and brown people with disabilities in our journey of accessibility and inclusion. And I say that because when we center the experiences of those most impacted , then it leaves space for everyone to benefit from that. To be establishing standards where everyone is included and has their thoughts and ideas. And that has not traditionally happened. [It has] c entered those who are most privileged within the disability experience. And in society at large. And so, we need to go back and make sure that we are looking at accessibility and inclusion from the experiences of those most impacted, which definitely includes Black and brown people with disabilities.
Sachin: This is Sachin. I’ll just say, it's a hard one to respond. Like Keri said, I have a list of—a wish list, I guess. One thing I would add is, when we talk about inclusion and accessibility, especially accessibility, a lot of time the focus is on affluent communities. You have big cities. You know, areas that most people, the densely populated people live. Well, a lot of US is not affluent. And you have rural communities. You have communities that are out there that people would love to reside and live in. And what people with disabilities don't have are the kind of options to be successful professionally. When we talk accessibility, when we talk inclusion, are we talking—why are we not talking about the region as a whole? Why do we focus on a particular focus area? Let's talk about evolution and accessibility in the region as a whole. Just don't focus on small sectors.
John: Well, I would like to t hank you all for having such thoughtful answers. We are out of time. I want to thank you all again and I want to let our audience know that lots and lots of great questions we were not able to get to. We will put a blog post on our website that we will try to tackle all of these questions to the best of our ability. And I just to want to thank everyone again.
